Ontario Tax Sale Property Forum
Tax Sale Forum => General => Topic started by: serendipity on August 22, 2006, 03:52:20 PM
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Anyone have any idea of the demand on water access only properties? I'm interested in one, but just mildly. It strikes me that these would scare off a lot of people due to access issues for future use, reno's, building, etc...
How have these typically been viewed in the past? I guess islands are a whole different kettle of fish though.
Thanks!
BTW - Great and informative site.
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The biggest problem I have found is you need access to a dock on the mainland which usually means renting or buying space. That could run you from nothing to a few thousand dollars. Also, year round access to your property might be impossible unless you have a small plane. Even if the lake the island is located on freezes in the winter, you can't travel late fall and early spring when the ice starts melting or forming.
I like the idea of owning an island.
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And that is the conundrum. Mainland facilities. Lack of that really can decrease value. I guess you could always throw on your boots/snowshoes and do some bushwacking. ;)
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It could also increase the value. If a buyer values privacy and has a small float plane it would be ideal.
Reselling this type of property is definately not something you want to try as your first resell or it may be your last.
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What is Karma?
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Water access is MUCH less desirable than road access. Even some land with seasonal road access (6-8 months of the year) are worth much less than something comparable with year round road access.
There's only a very limited amount of people that are willing to go through the trouble of getting a water access only property. The only exceptions I've seen is for islands, and on large lakes with water accessible amenities (grocery/liquor store, etc) such as can be found in Honey Harbour (Georgian Bay).
Basically my point is, if you are looking at a water access property, you really need to discount its value significantly in comparison to road access properties. Especially if significant work is needed such as clearing the land and bringing building materials there.
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They may much less desireable but there has been considerable interest in the ones available.
I guess it all depends on taste.
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If you've ever owned a water access cottage you know why they are considerably less money. Want to get a new fridge - getting it there can be fun. Want to hire someone to do some work on your cottage - good luck. Don't leave too late to get there, or get stuck in a traffic jam on the way there, cause if you get there after dark you'll be renting a hotel room for the nite. Don't have a heart attack either, cause the ambulances don't float.
I had one for two years and that was quite enough, - everything had to be lugged in, and I had to incurr several hundred a year in additional expense for the dock at the local marina (lucky if your lake has one by the way). No hydro or phone, everything ran on propane and generator. Any work had to be done by hand since getting a piece of machinery out was very costly and sometimes impssible - not much chance of drilling a well for clean drinking water, and heaven help you if you have a septic tank that needs pumping (most likely you have a composting toilet, or an outhouse - which also need constant maintenance (by you). If you want to take a quick trip into town remember to get back before sundown and give yourself the time you need to get out to the cabin. OH YES, make sure your outboard engine is in tip top shape, or you will be rowing the ten k back to the dock (bursitis time).
If you have a land based cottage, even if it is seasonal road you can still get in by ski-do. With a water access that is not possible for a good part of the year (wear a floating ski-do suit).
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Those are all very good points Frank. I guess it depends on each persons situation and the resources available to them in the area. But even if you had the perfect situation you wouldn't want to overpay. If you decided to ever sell you would end up having a tough time recouping your investment. The only scenario where I guess this would be a win-win is if you intended on keeping the property for the long haul.
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I forgot to mention, that when you get to the cottage (or leave), and it is raining - good luck if you only have an open boat. Also, if you are out there and it rains - you are stuck. These kinds of things can make your loved ones quite miserable.
But you are right it is all a matter of choice. I've known several elderly persons who have had these kinds of cottages all their lives, but there comes a time when they end up selling them (for a discount) cause they just can't make the trip anymore.
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What is Karma?
Serendipity
Karma is what you get when someone 'applaud's you. If they 'smite' you, then your karma goes down by one.
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Serendipity, if you like what sayone says you can applaud them on the other hand if you dislike what someone says you can give them a thumbs down by smiting them.
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A good boat is definately an asset...and a place to keep it that is less than 1km away. You'd probably notice that the water access properties are occupied far less than road access....ie no one really goes there. I'd think they would be a lot cheaper...but also very hard to sell.
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I think the only reason for water access having any sort of interest is the perception that they will be much cheaper than a road access lot, which is usually true.. but it still doesn't mean your getting a good deal.
Look at it this way, you can still get waterfront, road accessible property that is around 3 hours from Toronto for as low as 20-25k if you're lucky and know where to look. An equivalent water access only property 2-2.5 hours Toronto will usually go for more than that, even though you're probably looking at 2-2.5 hours by car, and then 30 mins by boat just to get to it.
My point is, water access property is overvalued right now in some areas which could be a good or bad thing, depend on whether you're a buyer or a seller.
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Very good post speedfreak. It is all about perception. One thing that I have found out about this tax sale business is that the biggest challenge is to seperate emotions from the investment side of things. I've only been at this awhile and have yet to succeed with a bid but I can definitely say that it is tempting to get carried away in the competitive nature of the business. It's addictive and sometimes you want to win just to win. In the end it is really all about the research and taking smart calculated risks without the emotion. The only exception to this rule should be if you find a property that is truely what you want and plan on never selling it.
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I think its like any other type of auction, people can get caught up in the excitement and end up paying more than the value of something because they let the emotions get the best of them.
I used to go to various content auctions just for fun about 10 years ago. What I found amusing is that certain items such as used computers would more often than not sell for close to the price of a brand new one. People seemed to have this assumption that if they're the highest bidder at an auction, that it's still going to be a good deal no matter what. Unfortunately, that theory doesn't work when multiple people that are bidding believe that same principle.
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Yes, but....if you are a machinery contractor, you can build a road in (long task but worth it often). You can pool with neighbours (who are water access) and share the cost, or, you may find you're not far away from the road, and offer a contractor a deal to do it, saying you'll pay when it's done, (when you can quickly remortgage your property, pull equity out (because now it's worth more - having been upgraded to road access) and pay the contractor off, and be left with extra $$$. There are many solutions to seemingly difficult problems. I did the one above and it worked, although I no longer own the property, I did make some cash on it.
P.S. Just reading Frank's toils and tribulations made me tired. Hope you have a road access property now and you can enjoy it, Frank...sounds like you deserve it - you've certainly contributed positively to this forum....Kudos....
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I forgot...there's also usually a public boat launch on most lakes in Ontario...even the small ones.
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That method does work but in many cases but you have to be very careful about the topograhy and the associated work/cash involved with such topography. Research, research, research. I looked at a water access that was close to an existing road but the grade was out of control. Talking to local County contacts they said it would pretty much require dynamite to level it to an acceptable degree. That doesn't even take into account of getting appropriate permissions to build private roads. Who own's the land? If Crown will they grant permissions?
Gap - What has been your experience in dealing with the MNR on issues like private road construction. It was my understanding that this has recently become much harder for approval.
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You are probably referring to this one in Algonquin Highlands:
Roll No. 46 21 003 000 02400 0000, Part Broken Lot 3, Concession 7,
Geographic Township of Stanhope, In the Township of Algonquin
Highlands, County of Haliburton (No 19), As in Instrument No. 120415.
File No. 04-09
Minimum Tender Amount: $16,052.73
Nice lake, but this is one of only two or three properties on the entire lake that are truly water access. Not that it is on an island, but you can't physically build a road to it, although there is one very nearby. To get to the that point you have to go up a very steep incline Known as Kushog Mountain Road. The foot of the mountain is at the back of this property. Check the topo maps at Haliburton County web site and you will get the picture.
The property is only .24 acres with 55 feet of frontage - it narrows at the back. There is a one room 12x16 shack on it (in very poor condition), and the outhouse is toppled over (no room for septics), and there is no dock. I can't understand why it is assessed at $77,000. There is a marina on the lake and at least two other public boat launches. I'm told that the shoreline is not very friendly and with no dock you will have a chore just getting to it - but have fun.
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I can answer the public boat launch question. Any lake beyond a minimum size must have a public boat launch. In my experience I've found that lakes as small as 1 km x 2 km all have them, so that cover about 95% of the lakes out there.
As far as creating a road to convert a water access property into road access, here's the issues you might want to consider:
-even if you have a road closeby, you would need some sort of a right of way to make a road going to the property
-away from the road usually means away from hydro/phone lines, and every 100 ft extra you are from the nearest hydro pole, then you can add about $750 to the cost of getting hydro to that property
-I've known someone that got a right of way created by "chipping in" with neighbours. After the 8 years of planning they still had only 7 out of 11 that would agree to pay, so 7 of them ended up paying approx $20000 each to foot the bill. The road was about 1 km in total. For them it was worth it since these were mostly nice, established cottages that had been around forever. But would it be worth it to pay $20000 to get a road to a piece of land? No.
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Has anyone been to that property??? All info I have received has said the area is STEEP...
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Quite a few people have been there! Around 60 according to someone on the lake.
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60 ? Wow - that's quite a turn out. I'm very curious to see how this one ends up? I've heard there has been tons of interest from my contacts up there as well but I didn't hear 60. I still can't understand why the assessed value of this one is so high though. The frontage is only 55 ft and the rear lot line is around 30ft. It's a steep sliver. I would imagine there will be an awful lot of bids in a very narrow range on this one. Ahh, elusive waterfront...
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60 oeople is alot...but remember most people don't go by themselves...so thats about 20 - 30 interested parties.
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I wonder about that many people going to one property asking around.
First, it is going to alert the property owner about the seriousness of the tax problem they have and encourage them to pay up (if the message haven't truly been understood prior).
Secondly, it is going to get a lot of the neighbours interested, involved and talking.
Third, it is one thing to have a person quietly visiting the property and perhaps visiting the property and trespassing. It is another to have 60 people trespassing and attracting attention.
A better approach for all of your tax sale property hunters might be if the first group of people who visit the property when it is first posted, wrote a description of the property, problems people might encounter, photos moght be a good idea as well on these forums. That would help slow down the next batch of people who come the down the following weekend and those that follow after.
I understand it is a competitive process and many may want to keep their information secret. But, if more and more people start coming to the property you are interested in, it is only going to attract attention, get more local neibourhood bidders involved and there is a good chance the property owner will wise up and pay those back taxes back (remember the owner can pay the back taxes + interest up to the sale of the property).
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First, it is going to alert the property owner about the seriousness of the tax problem they have and encourage them to pay up (if the message haven't truly been understood prior).
Secondly, it is going to get a lot of the neighbours interested, involved and talking.
Third, it is one thing to have a person quietly visiting the property and perhaps visiting the property and trespassing. It is another to have 60 people trespassing and attracting attention.
Hi Rob
While I agree with you, I don't believe that you can stop it, and that was why I posted the info. regarding this lot after I attempted to get to it. Not being a mountain goat, nor having a boat with me at the time - I gave up on it, but I thought I would give caution to the other on this forum.
Firstly, in some cases this level of activity does alert the owner (or a neighbour with contact to them) of the matter. Normally, it has already been dealt with by the time we get there since it has previously been advertised for four weeks in a local paper. I once had a reclusive lady chasing people from her porch when a parade of cars started going by her house after I advertised it for sale - it got the taxes paper, objective met.
Secondly, of course the neighbours are talking, they've been talking about this property and its condition for some time. In the case of this water access lot the guy next door would be crazy not to buy it and make his piece bigger (and more valuable).
Thirdly, besides the fact that they are all trespassing, how many of the 60 do you think read this forum. There are lots of people out there looking at this stuff, and in a location like this one (and on a nice weekend) - you have a recipe for an all out assault on the property.
Good idea though, and if I go and find a property with problems I will tell you about it - of course, does that then mean that if I don't tell you about a particular property, then that one is ok and I will see you at the sale - get the picture, it is always wise to hold your cards close.
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You make a strong point Frank. The local paper ads would have gotten the neighbourhood talking and the property owner would definately be aware of the situation.
I have a feeling this property is going to sell for way more then market value just because of the water lot description. If I lived nextdoor it would definately be worth it.
Holding your cards like a true poker player. I'm just surprised I haven't seen a lot of misinformation about the properties, I thought a year ago there would be negative post after post from people wanting to secure a property they were interested for a relativity cheap price.
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Never burn your bridges behind you. If you post a negative point - which is not true, only to beef up your own chances, it will surely come back to bite you at some point.
Also, remember that sometimes negatives are good. Case in point is the property I purchased in Gravenhurst. Negatives were that it had no water frontage, and the zoning did not permit you to build with a good view of the lake. I have now had a minor variance approved to get a good vantage point, and the lack of water frontage in that instance is of no consequence since there is a co-op frontage with existing facilities (of course there advantages and disadvantages to that as well, but I think it scared people off).
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Rob/Frank
Excellent posts. I've officially pulled out of the process for this one. ;) Or have I?
A local up there knows this property very well and is well acquainted with the surrounding land, roadways, lake, and its residents. He said it is a nice enough property aesthetically... once you are there. His opnion that the size, grade and access problems do not make it worth much - "to him". I take this with a grain of salt since he lives close by, going on 30 years, on a lake, with over 900' of frontage that he bought for a laughably small amount in the 70's. So pretty much everything to him is overpriced up there. If you have not experienced it, the local mentality up there is a different animal. They can not understand why people pay so much for property.
I also have a strong feeling that this one will go for market (give or take). And market for me defeats the whole purpose for engaging in this process in the first place. As someone mentioned, with a good agent and some contacts, you can still get similar property for reasonable value within 2.5 hours of the city that would require a whole lot less work and that is not water access. I guess that doesn't have the same cache however.
I do find this site contadictory in many ways. Not in a bad way. It is a place where you want to go to for advice and information but who out there, in any business venture for that matter, wants to aid the competition. I think this site is great for the actual listings, the processes involved, research tools and just plain discussion. BUT, when it comes to actual properties being bid up on I think it would be absolutely foolish to listen to anyone on this or any other site. Me included in the above. Research is best done on your own. Saving a few bucks and some time by getting opinions from others is NO substitute for doing it yourself...
Good luck all...
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My hubby was able to get out and see this property. While I won’t lie and say we aren’t caught up in all the hoopla, who ever ends up with this property will have a lot of constraints to deal with.
First the good points, the lake is nice, it’s close to Toronto, the property is picturesque and you could use a composting toilet.
Now the bad, the property is small! It’s not much bigger than our lot in Toronto and it is indeed steep. We spoke with the building department and any new construction would have to be 66’ from the shoreline and ten feet from the sides. This means that even if you could build new, the max width is 35’. Based on what my hubby can recollect, he can’t be sure if the property goes back this far before you hit the mountain.
If the existing facility is 50’ from the shoreline, you can build onto the sides and the back. There may be about 10 feet that could be added on to the back before the mountain rises up. You can’t build a second story. So if the existing structure is less than 50’ from the shoreline, the existing shack is all you get. My husband is a carpenter and he says the existing shack would definitely need to come down.
We also spoke with the Health department and there is no septic and even if you could get approval, the land is all bedrock so that won’t happen. If you put in a grey water leaching bed, you will need to bring in soil to cover it or you could have a pit drilled, which would also be cost prohibitive. There is no barge that empties holding tanks on that lake so that is not an option.
We found a property on the same lake listed for $275k with 588’ of frontage and just over 4 acres. It has year round road access and telephone and hydro. When you compare that to .24 acres of water access property it doesn’t compute. If you do the math, the $275k property is worth $68k per acre and a mere $17k for a ¼ acre and this is with road access, telephone and hydro.
We are still interested in the property, although I’m somewhat put off by the steepness of it (I have ms and I’m not too keen on stairs!), we are still thinking about putting in a bid, although, given the amount of interest that has been generated, I wonder if it is worth it. If the property could be obtained at a discount that would be great, but unfortunately, there is no way we could afford market prices. At the end of the day, this excercise has been a great learning process so we have only gained in that respect.
p.s. This board has been very valuable in my research, thanks all.
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New to this site but I too have seen this much talked about property.
Given all of it's challenges it may not be for everyone but something unusual came up and I thought about posting this note in search of answers.
According to the municipality there may be an outstanding lean on this property. They could not expand on the information although I am concerned about eventually having to deal with it. Does anyone know what should be done before making an offer?
Is this usual to have to search a property before the tender and if so, who is best to take care of it?
Any info would be appreciated,
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It is advisable to do a title search on the property. There may be a federal lien on the property and you will be responsible for the amount if you win the bid. So that 20,000 lake front property may endup costing you 60,000 extra.
The cost of a title search is from $35.00 and up. If you search the forum there is a thread discussing title searches and, a few links to online search firms.
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I wonder about that many people going to one property asking around.
First, it is going to alert the property owner about the seriousness of the tax problem they have and encourage them to pay up (if the message haven't truly been understood prior).
Secondly, it is going to get a lot of the neighbors interested, involved and talking.
Third, it is one thing to have a person quietly visiting the property and perhaps visiting the property and trespassing. It is another to have 60 people trespassing and attracting attention.
A better approach for all of your tax sale property hunters might be if the first group of people who visit the property when it is first posted,
I checked out the 126 ac in Kennebec today. Waterfront on Crotch is steep (drops about 60' over a span of 80') Nice and flat up top, but rocky, very little soil.
Note: road frontage is on Cranberry Lake Rd. not Crotch Lake Trail. There is power, and phone to the end of Crotch Lake Trail.
If ROW could be attained, it would be relatively easy to extend Crotch Lake Trail to the WF portion of the lot and build a cottage with a great view, but very steep shore line.
Tree cover: Firewood/Pulp only, mainly oak, sparse cover, rocky outcrops, no saw logs. Possibly logged hard years ago or, terrain does not support growth. Basal area <5 on majority, low branching, grass cover etc.
Terrain: Rock/swamp, little soil. Swamp in middle running N/S, property on West side of the swamp has similar tree cover, no access to this portion, cut off by swamp from the East, Cut off by other property owner to north (posted no trespassing). Estimate swamp to be 40 - 50 ac.
If anyone comes across a nicely treed property, let me know.
Woody.
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Good work Woody
I haven't been to it yet, but I got the package and it is assessed at $44,000 with a minimum bid of $12,993.08. I would suggest that you do a lot of research into it's possibilities before determining its true worth.
I also found out that the two cottage lots on Kennebec lake (assessed about $35,000 each with minimum bids of about $9,000) have crown liens attached - be very careful on these two folks.
Most of the other lots that are going for about $5,000 are only assessed at about $7,000 - this is a very low margin so you better do some research into what they are really worth first.
They have a dump which I don't believe will sell (or it least it is near a dump). As well there are two houses - generally low value, it their condition is questionable. The first sits on a quarter acre in the middle of nowhere, and the second while it is on an acre has a notation about a former gas station on the site (possible contamination and big clean-up bill).
keep smilin' 8)
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Thanks Woody/Frank,
I just got the package too and was thinking of headding that way soon to take a look too.
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Thanks for sharing that information, Woody!
Guys, what about that 4.5 acre property that was listed in the summer on Mazinaw Lake? No bids were submitted on that? Did anyone find anything wrong with that property?
Just curious.
Greg
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Hi Frank,
I also found out that the two cottage lots on Kennebec lake (assessed about $35,000 each with minimum bids of about $9,000) have crown liens attached - be very careful on these two folks.
Do you know how much the crown lien is?
Most of the other lots that are going for about $5,000 are only assessed at about $7,000 - this is a very low margin so you better do some research into what they are really worth first.
Yes, you mentioned in one of the topics that you earned money by purchasing properties from owners at the price around the assessed value. That means there may be some rooms for us to flip .....
Again, we have to do our homework.
Thanks again, Frank!
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As to the amounts of the crown liens - sorry, no idea. I heard they were there, and you will have to satisfy yourself as to the amounts via your search. They may be duplicates as well, if you find that the owner of both is the same person then it may be that the crown has placed the same lien on all of his properties and therefore if you bought both the amount they would want is half on each - you need to do your homework if you are interested.
We have a system of 'market value' assessment in Ontario that is supposed to represent the approximate value of property based on comparative sales. It doesn't always, and in some cases I have purchased property that ended up being worth far more than the assessed value - but don't count on it in every situation. The assessments in Kennebec may wel be correct, - as I said, you should satisfy yourself as to the true worth of the property - beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
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I attended the reading of the tenders for the Kushog property and thought I would tell you all how it went.
There were a lot of viewpoints on the water access property and it's worth.... well, hold on to your hat.
Whapping $80,100.00 for the 55 ft wide lot with a shack. Nice but is it a deal at that price.
I wish my offer of less would have won but kudos to the person that know what they want.
Seems more like a real estate deal than a tax sale.
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That is incredible, after reviewing the site information I wouldn't have bid more than 35 - hoping to maybe sell it for 50. It just goes to show that the cottage ownership dream is still alive and well, and has definitely expanded far beyond Muskoka. This reminds me of the one on French River last year - it wouldn't sell on the market for 80 (I bid 57), and some yahoo came in at 101 - go figure ???.
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80K??? Are you serious? I never would have thought it would go that high. I'm glad I got out of that process before shelling out coin on title searchs, etc... I was thinking in the mid-high 30's as well but after what I heard I decided to let it go.
my wife keeps telling me that we can rent a cottage for a month every summer for 50 years cheaper than buying/building one and still have money left over for a trip/year. she's right but it's just not the same as owenership... not the same at all. one day.
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For that type of money you could rent out a cottage for many summer and be completely happy and not worry about taxes, maintenance and all other expenses. But on the other side you won't get to sell your property in 30 years, reap the profit (and pay the capital gains). Life is about finding that balance.
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My first venture in real estate (other than my home) was a waterfront lot in Muskoka I bought for 30k 6 years ago. It doubled in value immediately. I built a beautiful cottage and now it's worth big bucks-amazing amount of equity. Now, I rent it out to other people for 1/2 of the summer, use the cash to pay all my expenses, use it for the other 1/2 of the summer and spend every possible moment of every weekend there for the rest of the year. I own it, it's mine and it's a second home - one we could eventually retire to. My arrangement with the summer rentals (and occasional year round rentals) pays off all my bills. This means access for 1/2 the summer for me is free.
Just recently, I got an offer to rent it for the whole summer 25k (!!!), but I decided we needed some summer family fun and it wouldn't be worth it.
Just my two cents....I've realized real estate is the way to go.
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A neighbouring property on my small Muskoka lake rents his place out all summer long for $3,200 per week. Extra if you want the aluminum boat and motor. We plan on building next spring, but I don't think I'll be renting - that won't leave any time left for me to use the place.
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I and members of my extended family have owned and some still do own a number of properties on the severn river. Some of us have paid for dock and parking space but most of us found free parking spots. We actually like being in a world where boats are the only method of travel. Moving a refrigerator is no problem especially if someone owns a welded steel boat. These are the equivalent of a pick up truck on the severn river. The point I want to make is that a lot of people love water access cottages. As long as the price is right there will always be a market.
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I attended the reading of the tenders for the Kushog property and thought I would tell you all how it went.
There were a lot of viewpoints on the water access property and it's worth.... well, hold on to your hat.
Whapping $80,100.00 for the 55 ft wide lot with a shack. Nice but is it a deal at that price.
I wish my offer of less would have won but kudos to the person that know what they want.
I somehow knew that one would be overbid with all of the excitement surrounding it.. but I never dreamt it would be close to 80k! I was thinking more like 30k or so.
The shack on that lot seemed to add some perception that the person didn't just pay 80k for just a very small, very sloped, water access only lot. I'm not sure that the shack adds much value to it at all.. but who knows.
For that type of money you could rent out a cottage for many summer and be completely happy and not worry about taxes, maintenance and all other expenses. But on the other side you won't get to sell your property in 30 years, reap the profit (and pay the capital gains). Life is about finding that balance.
I would say yes and no. Some people do rent out their cottage for 80% of the summer and make out very nicely financially. There's also the factor of capital gains to consider. My cottage neighbour paid 129k for his modest unwniterized 20x40 cottage on 2 acres just 3 years ago. Recently it was appraised at 300k.
Depends on the person though.. if someone doesn't want the headaches of maintenence, and just wants to do a few weeks or a month of cottaging for the whole summer then renting would probably be the way to go.
I built my cottage starting from a waterfront bushlot and definately it was a financial drain in building it... a few hundred thousand in materials, additional labor, drilled well, septic, hydro, furnace, appliances, etc. Then over the 6 years I built it, the township decided to increase my yearly taxes from $300/year to around $3600/year.
On the upside, I do rent it one week a month during the summer. That recoups my property taxes for the year, and usually pays for a few added toys (paddleboat, jetski, etc).
One real problem now I find is that it costs $75 in gas to drive up there and back. Makes me think twice sometimes.
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Speed
Looks like you need to sell the SUV and get into a little hybrid for better fuel economy.
I have the same thoughts sometimes. 8)
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Speed
Looks like you need to sell the SUV and get into a little hybrid for better fuel economy.
I have the same thoughts sometimes. 8)
I thought about that and did the math. I could shell out 20k for a new hybrid, but then I'd really only be saving about $35-$40 in gas on trips to the cottage and save about $100 in gas a month on average outside of those trips to the cottage. Also, I'd still have to keep my SUV for towing the boat, utility trailer, etc.
I guess the old addage is true.. "You have to pay to play!"
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I'm sure we've passed each other on the highway. I'm the one in the other SUV towing the boat.
Kind of difficult to do in Jetta.