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Author Topic: Anyone want to join my bid on Northern Bruce Peninsula  (Read 30490 times)
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worldjohn
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« on: August 20, 2009, 07:58:20 PM »

At first few glances this looks like one of the best properties that has come up for tax sale.  277 acres and lots of lake and road frontage. The assessed value is $355,000 and I'm guessing that if it doesn't get redeemed it will go for an amount above what I could bid on alone.
I'm proposing that 2, 3 or even 4  of us join together to put a decent bid together.  A simple contract should suffice.  This looks easily sub dividable with plenty of land and profits for all involved.
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Pfm1011
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« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2009, 05:17:05 AM »

Watch where you walk...Rattlesnakes Grin

You are dreaming if you think it can ever be divided as I am sure the park will claim the lake cant support additional cottages ( which is probably correct as it is a tiny lake (around 50 to 60 acres).  I can assure you the other cottagers and the federal government will fight you like crazy as the lake is already overbuilt and half is now in the park. The value of this piece would have been if the lake was private ( at least then you could jetski on it ) ( its a no motor lake ( pond)and that will never ever change) 

Im betting even getting a building permit will be fun as the park will definately have something to say to "help you with your layout" but you will get permission, just bet on a extra year .

As per the value , The piece adjacent to it which is 255 acres and doesn't have a public rd severing the lot. ( access via hope rd )  it sold for 56K in 1996 ,which makes it worth around 140 today. Its been for sale for over a year ( at a dreaming price) In addition to the lake front  It has a stream  and a small pond .

I think this may have value for your own use but not as a business deal ( as long as you don't want to use a jetski and you want to canoe on a non  private lake with 25 strangers plus the renters)Don't even think about outside speakers on your deck

non lakefront acreage up there is worthless, trades at under a couple hundred an acre

Subdivided the lots aren't worth much as this is the Bruce which is substantially cheaper then cottage country. Alot of the lots on the farside haven't built yet and that's 25 year old severances ( PRE-PARK). Go to MLS and you can get lakefront building lots on real lakes for 50K ASKING (MLS?: 415729 or http://www.davismclay.com/

Don't forget this is over 4 hours from toronto (Huntsville is 2 , Parry sound 2.5) and there is nothing for miles unless you consider Lions Head to be a fine dining area

Don't go by the assessed as with all tax sales , no-one is appealing the value since you aren't paying anyways

And of course all is mute as this will redeem , especially since its a 6 week notice

« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 06:00:42 AM by Pfm1011 » Logged
mickey84
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« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2009, 08:44:00 AM »

I spoke with the planning department the other day about this property. (They must be getting a number of calls on it as they have a PDF package that they will email out to anyone interested). To sum up the package, it clearly states that the lakefront cannot be subdivided into lots and sold off as the lake is already overbuilt and would not be able to handle more properties. My next thought was that many acres would be valuable to log. However, using google maps it would appear that the area was logged out at one time and my guess is they took all the good maples out, leaving little value to the land. (Although i have not been up to look at it).
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Webster
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« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2009, 11:44:08 AM »

Anyone know how a rural property with no servicing assessed at $355k can accumulate $47k in taxes in four years?  What gives with the Minimum?  Town wouldn't tell me what the annual taxes were.
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Pfm1011
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« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2009, 11:48:09 AM »

Its not 4 years, it can be much more. additionally the actual tax would be less then half and then they add all the costs , advertising  etc. I think Ontario tax sales charges on a contingency basis.


I talked to the town , Ontariotaxsales.ca will be posting the zoning package today or monday..so lets not bug the town staff
« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 12:27:38 PM by Pfm1011 » Logged
Frank
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« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2009, 08:32:42 PM »

Annual taxes on the property are available through the mapping on the District Web-site.  However, don't let that fool you, the taxes have probably accumulated for 10 years before they finally registered the property for arrears. 

So you think you can put in a subdivision (I kind of thought that at first, but then on further investigation decided that it would not be possible)....let's see, it is zoned agricultural, ...designated as County forest, ...and next to a significant Provincial park, ...on a 'pristine' lake (another term for canoes only).    The property can likely be divided in two as there is a road that traverses it, however the one portion will not have lake frontage at all...only a view of it from the northern portion.  The second property is on the south shore of the lake...cottages are preferred on the north shore as people like to sit on their deck and drink brown pop in the glory of the sun...not possible on the south shore.   The guy bought the property in 1916 and is likely deceased...if he has relatives they may redeem it, but there is that chance that none exist or are aware of the property.   It may be a large property, but really it is a single cottage lot which should go for about $50, let's say $70 for the additional land, and let's say $30 for the non-frontage lot to the east....market value of $100 total...tax sale, should not yield that much since if you were buying it under normal circumstances you would do it on condition that it can be split...hence it should only fetch $70, max....let's see what happens. 

Also, as pointed out, this is not prime cottage country.  It is at least four hours from the GTA, and the Bruce is not known for its significant number of rain/fog free days...it is in the middle of two rather large bodies of water.

Assessment can be significantly reduced if you take the time to have it redesignated as a 'managed forest'...you have to hire a forestry expert to develop a five year plan, and that has to be repeated every five years...so some of the savings are taken up by that expense.  Cool
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Pfm1011
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« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2009, 08:54:51 PM »

Excuse if there is repetition..I was scribling this while frank wrote his much shorter version, I never even thought about the south side problem..

I went up and took a look this all  weekend..4 hours plus.. .. I did drive through Durham and seen the damage.. not something one  would  expect  when you send kids  to daycamp..  There but for the grace of God ...

Now for  my trip

The first 100 acres is just 100 acres of crap bush No different then anything I can get 3 hours closer for next to nothing.  No stream, lake or pond.  Some old car parts and crap dumped but nothing to worry about .I'm not a forestry guy  but I'm guessing the trees are 30 or so years old.   If thinned out I would think you may have timber in 20 or  30 years. after you spend a pile on the managed forest plan to reduce the taxes. So essentially its worthless crap halfway between Lions head and tobermory..Let a local have it for the min

The larger piece is different. Its not a bad piece however the lake is very small , more of a large pond really . Small enough that you can hear people talking on the farside ( no ambient noise )  Half the lake is cottages .  according to the zoning map the last 3 pieces have an H on them so you are dreaming about any subdividing ever. (zoning map 37)   Its OK for canoeing  but would get real boring real fast and you cant  jetski to break the boredom. I guessing a radio will get you complaints.

 As per the forest question. Someone is actively harvesting in the forest and maintaining the driveway so I'm guessing its the owners kids picking out what they can.  .  Its also 30 to 40 years old and overgrown so completely choked . pines cedar and birch  around 6 to 8 inch max ( most are 3 or 4)  Forest will need major management to ever yield revenue as a forest and I bet you are ten to 20 years from first revenue.

The area we went to near the lake is  used as a local party spot and someone has been nice enough to leave an old fridge. and a rotted out pickup   Judging from the trails we seen and the aerials I'm guessing there will be more crap and junkers around but nothing huge.  The bonus is there are some trails on the property. Bad thing is all the good trees have been chainsawed I'm guessing.

In order to build a house you will have to carve a new road into the forest as the existing "driveway" doesn't get you far enough in to get away from the road noise ( mind you don't expect much when there is only 20 or so houses presently) .  The road does have hydro there so this is a bonus  so you are only looking at 5 or 6 hundred feet of run.

Location on this really hurts   .. Tobermory is literally at the end of the earth. The whole North Bruce peninsula population is 3900 . That is probably close to the population density of iceland .. So when the tourists leave in the fall ..expect to live in a scene similar to "the shining"

Apparently there is only one or two restaurants in the winter so any real needs in the winter is an hour to Owen Sound ( nearest hospital , apparently there is a nurse in Lions Head)

 The population has only gone up from 3600 to 3900 in the last decade so despite local realtors claims..its far from booming

The town is nice , clean and not loaded with tacky tourists attractions and waterslides. It is really  a tree hugger haven, hikers, divers etc.. People are nice, and don't wear lumberjack jackets and drive rusted out pickups. Didn't see any "white trash"     The water is Crystal clear  , there is around 4 or 5 restaurants, 2 or 3 small bars, , a small foodland and a few shops. Apparently over half of everything closes after September

This is not like Collingwood,  Bobcaygeon or Muskoka where there is alot of activity even in the winter.you are screwed come winter and even summer I think the town can get thin fast unless you put a sailboat in the harbour (25 minutes) This is definitely a "get away" and maybe too much so.

Real Estate:  Every second piece of land up there is for sale but the sales reports don't show alot moving. Lots of absolutely stupid asks  13 acres on Hay Bay ( mostly swamp)  , bought  in 96 for 19K  asking 550 today. ( private obviously)..225 acres on shouldice is in the window ( really faded in the north window at  395, Bought 1995 for 56,  Even the agent must think its a waste of time since its not on the mls)

Long and short:  I would not bid this blind and would seriously think about this before bidding any substantial amount.  It is absolutely not a good business move as a investment unless you get it for min ( not happening)   It may be a good one for your own use but the lake will get boring real fast..  

Mind you this is all mute as this may redeem since the owners kid are  maintaining the driveway.. but dispite the eight hours driving I was glad I went up to see the town.
 



« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 09:06:49 PM by Pfm1011 » Logged
netpred
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« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2009, 10:01:14 PM »

Thanks to Frank and PFM for the info. Great job guys. Obviously the two of you are not bidding. I am taking a pass because of the distance.

My real question is what's the over/under on this one? I'm betting over 100k. Any takers?
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twinn1
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« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2009, 12:51:29 AM »

Everything in Bruce county is overpriced.  As soon as I saw the location for this I did'nt bother researching it more.  PFM1011, I could have saved  you the 8 hour drive.
 I ride my motorcycle up that way quite often, not to many great areas, mostly small lakes and a lot of useless bush land.  I know a few locals up that way and if I had a dollar for every time I heard that this is the next muskoka (grey bruce county) I could retire and live well today.  What Frank said about the weather is true, its always colder up there and it gets a lot of rain.  In the winter, you better not have anywhere to go because the roads get closed all the time when it snows.

I wouldnt even buy this for minimum, no use or potential and its way to far out there. Hwy 6 is always busy.

The property market is dead up there, I know people in the larger towns out that way, Wiarton, Owen Sound, Chatsworth, that have been selling their homes for over a year with no offers.  Everyone still has this mindset that the rich city folk are going to buy there worthless "hobby farms".  The employment situation is really bad there as well, I know within the last year, 3 factories have closed in Owen Sound.

A lot of land that way is priced as prime agriculture (per acre) but its anything but prime.  Its a nice place for a cottage but not at today's asking prices.  For anyone bidding on this, wait until the last few days to submit, it might be redemed.  I know that a few years ago when they had tax sales almost all of them got redeemed.
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Pfm1011
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« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2009, 05:58:54 AM »

My real question is what's the over/under on this one? I'm betting over 100k. Any takers?

I thinks it may be worth abit more then Frank says so Im going for  over.. I dont think we will see a bargain as the 6 weeks means everyone on the planet will see the listing
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Frank
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« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2009, 06:19:26 AM »

Thanks to Frank and PFM for the info. Great job guys. Obviously the two of you are not bidding. I am taking a pass because of the distance.

My real question is what's the over/under on this one? I'm betting over 100k. Any takers?

I'm betting well over 100 as well....none of which means that I won't be bidding, I always reserve that option as you never know what information comes to light at the last minute.  I just tell it like I see it. 

On the positive side for this property....it is next to a Provincial Park...no one will ever build next door to you, and the lake is crystal clear....if you don't like the sound of motor boats, then this is definitely for you...marinas are nearby for a boat into Georgian Bay.  You'll never have to buy firewood, and it is near Tobermory, if like to scuba it is fantastic.


You'll likely never make a red cent on the property, but lots of people aren't interested in that part of the equation, they just want a northern getaway...and hey this is much closer than Elliot Lake, and cheaper than anything in Muskoka, Haliburton, or the Kawarthas.
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netpred
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« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2009, 08:08:27 AM »

Sorry Frank. I know that you never said anything about not bidding; it was just an assumption on my part.

If this was closer to Toronto I would be all over it. As it stands I don't want to waste time on an unlikely prize. If I was bidding, I would go over 100k but not by much. Otherwise I would be wasting my time. Now let's state the obvious, a large chunck of nice lakefront like this is easily worth over 100k retail. But isn't the purpose of a tax sale to find a bargain? I have found real bargains on MLS and elswhere so if I am taking a risk I want a better price. But even at 100k this appears to be a real bargain. Too bad about the distance.
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Frank
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« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2009, 09:58:40 AM »

Sorry Frank. I know that you never said anything about not bidding; it was just an assumption on my part.

If this was closer to Toronto I would be all over it. As it stands I don't want to waste time on an unlikely prize. If I was bidding, I would go over 100k but not by much. Otherwise I would be wasting my time. Now let's state the obvious, a large chunck of nice lakefront like this is easily worth over 100k retail. But isn't the purpose of a tax sale to find a bargain? I have found real bargains on MLS and elswhere so if I am taking a risk I want a better price. But even at 100k this appears to be a real bargain. Too bad about the distance.

Actually, that was my original point.  I don't think that this should go for any more than 70 at tax sale.  But I expect that it will probably fetch an additional 100 as a result of the yahoo factor.   No money will be made, but the purchaser will brag about how they got this fantastic property for less than 200, it's all on paper unless you want to flip it.
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markymark
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« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2009, 06:29:19 AM »

Sorry Frank. I know that you never said anything about not bidding; it was just an assumption on my part.

If this was closer to Toronto I would be all over it. As it stands I don't want to waste time on an unlikely prize. If I was bidding, I would go over 100k but not by much. Otherwise I would be wasting my time. Now let's state the obvious, a large chunck of nice lakefront like this is easily worth over 100k retail. But isn't the purpose of a tax sale to find a bargain? I have found real bargains on MLS and elswhere so if I am taking a risk I want a better price. But even at 100k this appears to be a real bargain. Too bad about the distance.

Actually, that was my original point.  I don't think that this should go for any more than 70 at tax sale.  But I expect that it will probably fetch an additional 100 as a result of the yahoo factor.   No money will be made, but the purchaser will brag about how they got this fantastic property for less than 200, it's all on paper unless you want to flip it.
I think it should go slightly over 100 but don't think it's a bargain.
My view,and hope you find it relevant is you could have had half an island off Oilphant already subdivided
for the min on this one.If you can sell the other 200 acres you could have a nice cottage on a small lake.
Cheers, even though it's not too far for me.
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Frank
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« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2009, 07:50:25 AM »


[/quote]I think it should go slightly over 100 but don't think it's a bargain.
My view,and hope you find it relevant is you could have had half an island off Oilphant already subdivided
for the min on this one.If you can sell the other 200 acres you could have a nice cottage on a small lake.
Cheers, even though it's not too far for me.
[/quote]

If you get the whole thing for slightly over 100, and get a decent sale on the 200 acres you might walk away with a building lot for next to nothing.  However, it is just that, a building lot...in the middle of nowhere, it will have a view of a small lake, but no access, as the road will be in front of it...I don't believe this is a busy road, but you have no direct access to the lake, unless you work out a deal when you sell the 200 acres to give you some sort of access...without consent approval, that access will be short lived (I believe 23 years max.)

Good perspective, on what you could have had for similar money, but hind-site is 20-20
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