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Author Topic: Site: OntarioTaxSales--Charges BIG fees for Townships to post Pictures {:^(  (Read 31348 times)
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Les Pisrael
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« on: December 08, 2010, 08:12:35 PM »

 Angry
 Spoke to the city clerk in charge of Tax sales and was shocked to hear that OntarioTaxSales charges BIG bucks for listings showing bare bones info on tax property sales.OK OK -pictures do show some what info--but 5-7 years out of date.
Here is the kicker--the town/city then adds the cost on the tax arrears total. Clerk told me that the fees are so great that already the city fees are so great--no body would want the property in question.
How many of you know that BIB FAT legal fees are added and some cases clean up fees in the 10s of thousands to the bottom figure.One recent one property had a min price tag of $90K+- and from that $60 k was added for  Legal/clean up--fee (abandoned cars and some tires and of course Photo @ OntarioTaxSales.
 Shamefull [:^/

 Grin Here is my best Utube video--Cheers me up and so will you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw2IIU0a9qw
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bobs
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« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2010, 08:38:20 PM »

I have always wondered how much OTS charges the townships.  Do you have a dollar figure on this?
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netpred
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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2010, 09:28:56 PM »

I have always wondered how much OTS charges the townships.  Do you have a dollar figure on this?

The answer is not entirely clear to me but I do have some insight that I will share in a public forum.

My information is as follows:

Real Tax is owned by OTS (or they are owned by the same principles.) Real Tax provides one stop shopping for municipalities. They advertise in the Gazette for the municipality, provide advice and provide all of the forms etc. They also attend to registration of the tax deed. I hope that I am not "outed" by this post because there is no doubt that the people behind OTS and Real Tax are active here, but on a successful sale, they charge about $800 to the municipality. The municipality simply adds this to the tax bill. If the municipalities wish to use OTS as a form of advertising, the price is significantly higher. There are many municipalities that use Real Tax and pay the $800 but who will not pay the extra OTS fee. Then of course OTS double ends by selling subscriptions to us, tax sale packages and searches that cost over $100. The beauty of this is that they pay only $32 plus the cost of instruments and executions only once for each property that they have searched. So if they sell 5 searches they make........ and if they sell 10 searches they make............. you do the math.

So, who do you think is making the real money on tax sales? A brilliant business plan if I do say so. I wish that these people would come clean on this forum. If I am wrong, please correct me as it is not my intention to mislead or provide a false impression (watch my Karma take a hit for this post)  Wink The biggest beef that I have with OTS and Real Tax is that municpalities take everything that they are told by these people as the gospel truth. Why do you think that some municiplaites charge HST while others do not? The answer is quite simple - those municipalities that use Real Tax or OTS have been told to charge HST.

Having said all of the above, they are real pros and provide a valuable service to municipalities that are either too lazy or not sophisticated enough to do their own work.
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Frank
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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2010, 09:43:52 PM »

OTS and Real Tax provide a valuable service...to smaller municipalities who don't have the resources to maintain a level of professionalism that is required in handling tax sales.    Municipalities the size of Hamilton each year go after in excess of 2,000 properties that are three years in arrears.  By the time repeated dunning notices are affect and various threats reacted to, they generally have about a hundred properties that they register for arrears...then after a year goes by they will end up with 20 or so that get advertised...following redemptions they end up selling 5 per year.....this requires constant diligence and staff that have the capabilities to handle the various intricacies that ensue with legal action of this sort.

Most Municipalities levy charges far in excess of $800 that are heaped on top of the tax arrears.  When a property goes into arrears, and this action must be taken...can anyone here tell me why the general taxpayers should pay for the cost of collection.  No one...I see, and the Province thinks so too as it permits Municipalities to add these costs to the balance owing.

Ever dealt with a small municipality that didn't know what they were doing...and wouldn't admit it.   I did, and ended up taking them to court to prove my point.  Cool
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netpred
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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2010, 10:21:15 PM »

Frank:

We can debate the merits (or lack thereof) of OTS and Real Tax but I think that people can draw their own conclussions. The question that I have is simple "is my information factually correct, or is it in error"? If it is correct, some may view these organizations in a positive light while others may not. People will think as they wish but I value transparency. As an aside, it is also my information that more than a few municipalities resent the fee structure that is charged to them. Again, I may be wrong, but I have heard things right from the sources. Remember, nothing lasts forever.

If you are watching (and I think you are)..... be mindful of killing the goose that laid the golden egg. There is a growing resentment (and competition on the horizon).
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Frank
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« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2010, 10:31:15 PM »

Frank:

We can debate the merits (or lack thereof) of OTS and Real Tax but I think that people can draw their own conclussions. The question that I have is simple "is my information factually correct, or is it in error"? If it is correct, some may view these organizations in a positive light while others may not. People will think as they wish but I value transparency. As an aside, it is also my information that more than a few municipalities resent the fee structure that is charged to them. Again, I may be wrong, but I have heard things right from the sources. Remember, nothing lasts forever.

If you are watching (and I think you are)..... be mindful of killing the goose that laid the golden egg. There is a growing resentment (and competition on the horizon).

Had I been managing a small municipality I would have welcomed the service provided by Real Tax...they've been developing their skills for about 20 years if my memory serves me, and they have hit a market niche that was definitely lacking.  Just because you or someone else didn't come up with the idea first, doesn't mean that it isn't a good one. 

The last resource which they are now providing is the property search, and I have used it a few times...mostly I do my own.  You can hire a lawyer, or a freelance title searcher, but they don't know the intricacies of tax sales and what they are really looking for, they can either cost you more in the short term for the service, or cost you more in the long term for errors.   I for one (being a former tax collector) commend them for the valuable service they provide, and I should note that I do not have any stake in their enterprise. Cool
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netpred
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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2010, 10:42:33 PM »

Like I said, we are free to draw our own conclussions. I have no grudge against OTS or Real Tax and I have said what I wanted to here and in other posts where I expressed the view services like OTS have the effect of raising prices that tax sale properties sell for. I also do not care that they came up with this admittedly good idea to service municipalities since I have been busy with ventures of my own.

My only other comment is that if their service is so beyond reproach, why doesn't OTS/Real Tax engage in the public process that this forum provides? You are here, so speak up!
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 10:49:46 PM by netpred » Logged
Bruce289
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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2010, 01:45:42 PM »

What is "Real Tax"?

Thanks... Bruce
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Frank
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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2010, 02:37:14 PM »

What is "Real Tax"?

Thanks... Bruce

http://www.realtax.ca/

 Cool
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Dave2
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« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2010, 04:34:57 PM »

Angry
 How many of you know that BIB FAT legal fees are added and some cases clean up fees in the 10s of thousands to the bottom figure.One recent one property had a min price tag of $90K+- and from that $60 k was added for  Legal/clean up--fee (abandoned cars and some tires and of course Photo @ OntarioTaxSales.
 Shamefull [:^/

Les:

I tend to agree with Frank on this one regarding Ontario Tax Sales  Everything is relative.  Your post covers two subjects.  A municipality wants to get their taxes.  
In that light the cost is cheap if it works.  None of us like it because it increases competition and raises prices.  

The added cost for land for environmental cleanup is cheap in the example quoted.  I know of some that were several million. I will not bid on industrial land because of that risk.  Tax sales are are sold on an as is basis.

The only bitch I have is the poor sucker who have the misfortune to buy the property. Tax sales are not for amateurs.  When my lawyer warns me that  his bill will be higher then normal because there are fifty pages of documents registered against title I decide to pass. 
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 04:39:45 PM by Dave2 » Logged
Bruce289
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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2010, 06:15:03 PM »


Thanks again.
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KENORA
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« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2010, 03:15:54 PM »

way to call them out netpred!!
 but they want to hide i guess?............
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MHT
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« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2010, 03:28:27 PM »

I don't see what they would have to come on here and post about.  If they are running a successful business, good for them.  They do not have to justify it to anyone on here.  If there is so much money to made with their service then there will certainly be more competition and competition will bring out the best for the consumers (be it the municipalities or the buyers).  If people do not want to use their services they are free to go about things a different way.
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netpred
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« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2010, 08:43:10 PM »

I don't see what they would have to come on here and post about.  If they are running a successful business, good for them.  They do not have to justify it to anyone on here.  If there is so much money to made with their service then there will certainly be more competition and competition will bring out the best for the consumers (be it the municipalities or the buyers).  If people do not want to use their services they are free to go about things a different way.

I agree. The people behind OTS and Real Tax have no legal obligation to post here or anywhere. They are both, to my knowledge, privately held companies with no legal requirement to publicly report. I also commend them for a great business plan. However, I have posted information about their business practices and if I am wrong, then I would certainly like to hear about it. I don't think that there is anything wrong with consumers having a full and complete picture of the companies that they deal with. If you are buying a new car from a dealer, would you like to know the dealer's cost or would you simply be happy to pay whatever the dealer asks? At the least, you would want to know what other dealers sell for. In this game, there is only one dealer. Think about that for a bit before you speak.

Second, It is inconceivable that OTS is ignorant of this site. We all have found it so there is no doubt that a sophisticated outfit like OTS has also found it. So, it is my view that if OTS has the benefit of of monitoring this site, they should also have the obligation of at least acknowedging their activity. On other non-tax forums where I am active, I notice that corporations that have a vested interest are extremely active in explaining their products and dealing with any issues that may arise. It is to their advantage. OTS should see this as an opportunity to help sell their product instead of hiding behind an alias or lurking silently.

Third, I have a moral issue with double-ending. When I eat my cake, I do not expect to have it the next day for lunch.

Last, do I have a beef with OTS and Real Tax? Perhaps, but only to the extent that they make this game far too easy to play or that they may be providing wrong information to municipalities that costs me money. It does bother me that a municipality will engage in a course of conduct only because OTS tells them to. Many municipalities rely on the advice that they receive from lawyers and do not blindly follow what they are told by OTS. They do things differently. Maybe OTS and Real Tax are not right all of the time. Why should I pay for their mistakes without any recourse? So yes, OTS costs me money and I believe that they are wrong on some significant issues.

Finally, Real Tax should check the Law Society rules about acting for both sides on a transaction. Rule 2.04.1 of the Law Society's Rules of Conduct deals with acting for transferors and transferees on the same transaction. OTS/Real Tax, I believe, appear to be in violation of the Law Society's rules when they register deeds. You cannot avoid the rule by simply discaiming that you do not act for both sides. If it was that easy, would smart lawyers not do the same? Again, if I am wrong and there is no violation of the Law Society's rules, please enlighten me.

Again, if anything here is in error, I invite OTS and Real Tax to correct me. It is not my intention to deceive and I am only posting what I honestly believe. In fact, If I am wrong, I want nothing more than to be corrected. So, although you are technically correct in that neither company has a legal obligation to post here, if you were running these companies, would you sit silent in the face of this post?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 04:57:38 AM by netpred » Logged
MHT
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« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2010, 09:11:37 PM »

I certainly would not come on to a forum on the net to try to explain myself because everyone knows exactly how those things turn out....flaming, arguments with no basis behind them, statements taken out of context, etc.  Keyboard warriors who will make comments and hide behind their computer screens.  If you have a beef with them, contact them privately.  If you think that they are somehow breaking the law, look into what can be done about it.  A forum such as this is not a place that I would come to post about my own company's policies nor would I expect anyone else to do so.
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