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verbalnoncents
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« on: April 18, 2008, 06:54:20 PM »

I am interested in this property and asked my lawyer to do a title search for me and she discovered that there is an outstanding charge on the property from TD bank in the amount of $100 000. Just thought I'd give the heads up...
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Jayz
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« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2008, 10:03:45 PM »

Isn't it considered private lien that will be removed automatically when the property changes hands through tax sale?
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quikcar
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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2008, 07:02:50 AM »

Just wondering when this was mortgage was registered.  Is it quite recent??
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Pfm1011
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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2008, 06:12:51 PM »

Does anyone have a picture??  If it isnt redeemed , which it probably will be, Frank is right about big dollars, Noone is grabbing this for 10k over minimum
« Last Edit: April 19, 2008, 06:14:36 PM by Pfm1011 » Logged
verbalnoncents
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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2008, 08:05:17 PM »

Off the top of my head the mortgage was registered 2001...
I am thinking of bidding on the property but am hesitant with that charge.
I have to see if I can afford that amount of money lol... that means it will cost min $117 000 if you end up having to pay the charge from TD Bank.
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verbalnoncents
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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2008, 08:07:17 PM »

Does anyone have the list of past cottage properties that have sold and how much they sold for above the minimum?
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Pfm1011
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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2008, 08:47:59 PM »

You had a lawyer do the title search, Did he not explain this to you???  YOU DONT PAY THE MORTGAGE.  The mortgage is voided by the tax sale. That is why it will likely redeem and not be sold. This guy bought this in 2001 , borrowed 100k , He would still owe 75 . Bank is notified of the sale as is the owner, Even if the owner walked,  the bank would pay the taxes and then power of sale the property out from under him.

Was it a private mortgage or a bank??

By the way ..dont even bother bidding 17..this will be 10 x that amount unless its burned out.
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Jayz
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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2008, 09:27:27 PM »

By the way ..dont even bother bidding 17..this will be 10 x that amount unless its burned out.

I wonder who can come up with this much cash since getting mortage for a tax sale property is almost impossible.
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ugazzovision
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2008, 10:13:58 PM »

I went up to look at this property - I think it's worth somewhere in the $300,000 - $400,000 range (IMHO). I then got the title from the land registry office on April 9th. I don't see a mortgage registered on title. There are two entries, 1) LT223065 - transfer of 217,000 on 2001/10/12, and 2) MT26834 - certificate of $5,692 on 2006/12/05. I did not do an execution search on the owners or on the registration numbers. Lastly, I contacted the owner's to see if I could offer any help out of their dilemma, but they were extremely rude. As stated all mortgages would disappear if it is not redeemed.  I still haven't made up my mind if I will bid on this knowing it will be redeemed at the last second - probably a waste of time. Still, I would love to see someone get it at a good price. Any takers out there?

I also looked at the house in Bala. Minimum Tender Amount: $31,177.27 The house is a disaster, the lot is horrible. I don't think it's worth the minimum.
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Frank
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2008, 05:15:31 AM »

I contacted the owner's to see if I could offer any help out of their dilemma, but they were extremely rude.

Why on earth would you contact the owner?Huh?
Your estimate of value might be a bit high, is that a landfill site to the west of the property or just a very large quarry operation.  It's on a very small lake, albeit in a lovely area, and will have lots of road noise coming at it.   Cottage appears quite unkept from the outside....usually that means the same on the inside....single pane slider windows, oil furnace (yuk).   I would say that your estimate of final market value ....  once you've put a good suit and tie on it and spent some money modernizing it, is a bit high.

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Frank
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2008, 05:21:49 AM »

I also looked at the house in Bala. Minimum Tender Amount: $31,177.27 The house is a disaster, the lot is horrible. I don't think it's worth the minimum.

It would make a good test burn for the local fire department. 

Was that you parked in the pick-up out front on Friday afternoon, or were you in the small car trying to find the river lot...with no success obviously cause you were a block away.  You do see the strangest faces when out looking at these properties, and they are all looking at their paperwork with puzzled looks on their faces.
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Pfm1011
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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2008, 06:17:56 AM »

"Lastly, I contacted the owner's to see if I could offer any help out of their dilemma, but they were extremely rude."

First ...You are high on the value. It is a small lake less then 1/2 mile long loaded with houses

.next..ARE YOU AN IDIOT??? Why on earth would you contact the owner Huh  So If I get this right , You drive 4 hours to get to a cottage, then you spend time doing a title search, then you....Call the owner to see if you can lend him 8 grand to bail him out!!!!!.. This, the owner, who has ignored tax notices for 4 years, Who simply figures everyone else should pay taxes for schools, roads,hospitals etc  but he doesnt have to.

I dont know about you , but I pay over 5 k a year just for my main  house, I sure as hell do not feel sorry for someone who freeloads and doesnt pay taxes.  Next time you write the check to your city..think of these people who freeload ..you are helping him out as you are paying his bill for him ..

This is not a orphanage where the poor children will be tossed onto the street , These are people who bought a cottage in the muskokas and simply cant be bothered to pay their tax bill. Next time you have an urge  to "help someone out"  donate a 100 to the united way

Well if there was any chance it wouldnt be redeemed and would slip thru ( although small) , Its gone now
..Good Job
« Last Edit: April 20, 2008, 06:29:02 AM by Pfm1011 » Logged
ugazzovision
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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2008, 06:49:28 AM »

Why on earth would you contact the owner?Huh?

Simple: to try and get information on the situation. 

.next..ARE YOU AN IDIOT??? Why on earth would you contact the owner Huh  So If I get this right , You drive 4 hours to get to a cottage, then you spend time doing a title search, then you....Call the owner to see if you can lend him 8 grand to bail him out!!!!!.. This, the owner, who has ignored tax notices for 4 years, Who simply figures everyone else should pay taxes for schools, roads,hospitals etc  but he doesnt have to.

No, you did not "get this right". What you obviously fail to see is there is more than one way to get this property. I'm sure others have wondered if the owner would be willing to solve his problems by selling the property before the tax sale (at a discount of course). There are so many other ways to negotiate this deal into a win-win for you and the owner. Your conclusion of giving the owner money as a loan is not well thought out.

Your estimate of value might be a bit high, is that a landfill site to the west of the property or just a very large quarry operation.  It's on a very small lake, albeit in a lovely area, and will have lots of road noise coming at it.   Cottage appears quite unkept from the outside....usually that means the same on the inside....single pane slider windows, oil furnace (yuk). 

The property was purchased in 2001 for 217,000. At a conservative estimate, Muskoka properties have increased at 5% year over year. Doing the math it means the property is worth 305,000 in 2008 due to the hot real estate market alone. Also, if you do a search for similar properties for sale you will find 1144 Clearwater Shores for sale for 419,000. I didn't see a landfill site to the west, just trees. I didn't hear any road noise while I was there. I thought the cottage looked pretty good from the outside, just some eavestroughing to be replaced. The basement looked full height. Yes oil heat but what else is there? Are we looking at the same property (1166 Clearwater shores)?


P.S. I joined this group to share information and try to help one another. If replies to my posts are going to begin with name calling and bewilderment then I will no longer be sharing my insight as it will be a waste of my time.
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Pfm1011
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« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2008, 07:41:53 AM »

The theory of buying at a discount?  He could simply sell the property on MLS in 2 or 3 days. Or to a friend in a day ,   He only has 200 K tied up in it, could get out in with a profit in 1 day. Why would he sell it to you in a "win win"   I believe you got your answer from him and I believe there was a F U in the sentence.

Well thought out..He is 8 k behind in taxes ( min bid includes large fees) and he will sell it to a stranger for 100K under value  just because he never thought of selling it or couldnt come up with the money . 8 k is a simple credit card swipe . If his cards are maxed , He could borrow 8 k on the property from the bank in a day on a line of credit, probably wouldnt even have to show up, simple phone call.

If he was willing to lose his shirt, it would be to friends or family, Not a stranger

In regards to local sales  1144 did not sell for 419, that is what it listed for ,  It has 2558.44 M2 lot which is much larger and what  its condition.  There is others in the area that went for much much less and what was their condition? Also based on the frenzy in the muskokas, tons of stuff has been going off at twice its true value, But incase you didnt read the Globe on friday..Its official..18% drop in sales..despite what remax agents say , the boom is over.  Would have ended last year if the banks didnt add the 40 year mortgage option so more people could dig themselves into a debt on a house they cant afford.

When booms end, the cottages are the first to get slaughtered in pricing, especially the muskokas as they have been the silliest of the lot. Additionally the Muskoka stupidity has been  powered by US buyers , who have evaporated as they have a tiny little problem in the US Real estate market. Well if you consider a collapse worse then 89 and approaching 1930 numbers as being a little problem.   Anyone who bought there in the last 2 or 3 years ( maybe longer ) will not get their money out this summer and many will lose large. By fall  (next spring at the latest) all speculators up there will be fireselling.


In case you havent done the math, If a US buyer purchased a property 3 years ago in Muskoka, He can sell it for 30% less then he paid and still break even.   With the US collapse many are scrambling for cash to cover their butts or to go bargain hunting at home.  I know of one piece right now where the lender has  1.5 mill worth of paper on the cottage , 6 months in arrears and he cant POS it without a 30 % loss if he is lucky ..He is a private lender and not feeling too good right now.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2008, 08:24:41 AM by Pfm1011 » Logged
ugazzovision
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« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2008, 08:09:17 AM »

The theory of buying at a discount?  He could simply sell the property on MLS in 2 or 3 days. Or to a friend in a day ,   He only has 200 K tied up in it, could get out in with a profit in 1 day. Why would he sell it to you in a "win win"   I believe you got your answer from him and I believe there was a F U in the sentence.

I only go by experience. A friend of mine negotiated with a fellow who was sure he could clear up his mortgage before bank repo. He ended up selling to my friend 3 days before reposession. The guy didn'e even tell his wife up to then. My point is you don't know their situation and can't be sure if you don't try. I never did get to speak to him about the property, he tried to pretend he didn't understand english although he spoke to me in perfect english. This showed me that he probably does have a way out of this.

In regards to local sales  1144 did not sell for 419, that is what it listed for ,  It has 2558.44 M2 lot which is much larger and what  its condition.  There is others in the area that went for much much less and what was their condition? Also based on the frenzy in the muskokas, tons of stuff has been going off at twice its true value, But incase you didnt read the Globe on friday..Its official..18% drop in sales..despite what remax agents say , the boom is over.  Would have ended last year if the banks didnt add the 40 year mortgage option so more people could dig themselves into a debt on a house they cant afford.

I didn't say I knew what any cottages sold for. I said that was the list price. If I was going to make a bid I would then do comps on sales. I agree with you that this property is not as nice. One proplem is a non-existant shoreline - the cottage has a short distance to an overhang looking over the lake. Can you share your comps with us regarding sale prices? As far as the boom being over, I agree you have to be very carefull these days, but I think with up-front investigation such as this your risk will be lowered enough.
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