Ontario Tax Sale Property Forum
Tax Sale Forum => General => Topic started by: SandraC on December 23, 2008, 12:38:35 AM
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Hi ~ I'm looking at a SMALL spot of land, under an acre for $15K, with a little stream running thru it. It's surrounded by conservation land. Is there a benefit in such land? Thanks, Sandra
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of course, you wont wake up with a highrise beside you...on the other hand better check your acre for restrictions
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I'm looking at a SMALL spot of land, under an acre for $15K, with a little stream running thru it. It's surrounded by conservation land
Conservation areas tend to be low areas and have large areas of flood plain. Their prime mandate is to control development of flood plain. Any privately owned land surrounded by conservation is likely in their acquisition zone. Depending on the flood maps there could be huge restrictions on building. The construction can not make the flooding significantly worst by displacing water or water course. Likely you would only be able to build where there is already a building and the flood plain is marginal. If you were allowed to build you would be required to make the construction flood proof, all openings 1' above the high water mark of a 300 year storm [Hurricane Hazel]. Accessing the property is also an issue They won't approve construction if the property is not accessible during such a storm,[driving thru a foot of water in your Hummer is not a solution]. If you get approval to build, you would have sign a "save harmless agreement". and some form of easement on title. The restrictions are always changing and getting tougher. I have lived surrounded by CLOCA for years. Their policies seem to change with their staff. Fortunately my flood plain is minimal and I have built on two separate occasions. A friend of mine bought property surrounded by Conservation and he is not allowed to park a trailer on his property.
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Thank you for your replies.
The land I'm considering does have a small insulated building on it....only about 10x20, one room. Good enough to stay and play and enjoy nature. The agent said that there is a lot of low land. It's about a 3 hour drive from my home. I like the price.
Truly a good consideration! Thanks, Sandra
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If you get approval to build, you would have sign a "save harmless agreement". and some form of easement on title.
I should have said "safe harmless agreement" This is a legal document so you do not sue the Conservation if you are flooded. Keep your feet dry and Merry Christmas , Happy Seasons Greetings. 8)
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One acre of essentially wet land, surrounded by mosquitos...15K ...I would probably take a pass as Im sure you can do better for the same or just a few dollars more. Seems like a 3 hour drive to get to "paradise" might not be a good plan. Remember that the land purchase is just a small part of the big picture, better to spend 30 or 50 on a nice piece , then to waste 15 on swamp
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You can likely do better than swampy land for 15k... and less than 3 hours from your home. What you're describing sounds like a typical "hunt camp".
Being close to conservation land is quite often a hinderance more than it is a benefit. You should check if you are allowed to build on the lot. Not likely since a septic would be a no no, and no septic means no building permit. Outhouses are also illegal in most areas, so you might want to think about the viability of using a place with no septic or outhouse.
Keep in mind what you plan to do with the land. If you want a place to getaway to, which usually means somewhere you can sleep, cook, relax, have some sort of rudimentary plumbing, etc. You probably want something more than a private campground, which is essentially what it would be.
Don't mean to shatter your dream.. but I encourage you to keep looking for something with more potential.
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Steve is correct and brought up many good points. If you are buying private /mls you always make the deal subject to issuance of a building permit. The last thing you want is t spend 15k just to find out that you cant build so essentially you have fifty dollars worth of crap land
The small shack on the land does not mean you can get a permit to build. It can be grandfathered and you would only be allowed to repair it, not expand it . Before driving anywhere, always review the local zoning.
Real estate agents think nothing of blowing smoke up you and making you waste 3 hours getting there just to show you crap as A: you may be an idiot and buy it..or B: they can then show you more expensive pieces way above your budget and completely not what you are looking for. " I want 500 acres minimum with 50 acre ot bigger private lake, I will look at 100 acres minimum only if its on the trent or rideau" Agent. Well we have this wondeful 1 acre without lake, I thought you could buy it until you find your 100 acres (true conversation)
I cannot tell you how many times I have had agents try to get me to drive hours and give a big song and dance about how great land is , what a wonderful place for a summer house etc and have them skate the zoning questions. After I pull the zoning low and behold..cant build anything.
If you want a small piece up north you want to be surrounded by crown land , not conservation land
Remember the 10 rules of real estate ( last 7 I have added) 1 Location 2 location 3 location 4 the agent is lying 5 the agent is lying 6 the agent is lying
7 the agent is lying 8 the agent is lying 9 the agent is lying 10 the agent is lying
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PFM - I imagine you won't be invited to speak at the real estate agent convention next year. Pity
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maybe they learned from the example of the guy from Montana:
Young Chuck in Montana bought a horse from a farmer for $100.
The farmer agreed to deliver the horse the next day.
The next day he drove up and said, "Sorry son, but I have some bad news, the horse died." Chuck replied, "Well, then just give me my money back."
The farmer said, "Can"t do that. I went and spent it already"
Chuck said, "Ok, then, just bring me the dead horse." The farmer asked, "What ya gonna do with him? Chuck said, "I"m going to raffle him off." The farmer said, "You can"t raffle off a dead horse!" Chuck said, "Sure I can, Watch me.
I just won"t tell any body he's dead." A month later, the farmer met up with Chuck and asked, "What happened with that dead horse?" Chuck said, "I raffled him off. I sold 500 tickets at two dollars a piece and made a profit of $998."
The farmer said, "Didn"t anyone complain?" Chuck said, "Just the guy who won. So I gave him his two dollars back."
Chuck grew up and works now for the government. He was the one who figured out how to "bail us out".
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Thank you everyone and MERRY CHRISTMAS.....Happy Festivus!
I think I'll keep looking. I'd like something about 2 hours from home [Mississauga]. Cabin, water near by, 3 acres-ish, minimum comfort, but maximum get-away for my family. Thanks! Sandra
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You should check if you are allowed to build on the lot. Not likely since a septic would be a no no, and no septic means no building permit.
The Conservations interest in your proposed septic system would be, grading and displacement of water if this system is in flood plain. Usually the displacement is insignificant and approval would be granted. You would need permits for importing sand and fill, again if it is in flood plain. For septic systems it is the Health Department, and their concerns are lot size, setbacks, percolation, bedrooms and design, etc. Because privately owned land within a Conservation area is subject to certain building approvals from the Conservation area and the subject land is likely also in their acquisition zone, the Conservation has to treat proposals in an unbiased manner or it would appear to be a conflict of interest. Denying approvals would devalue the property allowing to be picked by the Conservation at a discount.
However Steve and Pfm raise a number of good points as to valuation. I like to keep selling value in mind. Being able to get a building permit from the municipality is most important.
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Sandra:
One other key issue to watch for is a lot that is being sold because it is part of what has been referred to as a "checkerboard subdivision" whose registration was sneaked a couple of decades ago under
a loophole in the planning act. Many municipalities refuse to allow a residence to be constructed on them.
They are very common in the county where I live (Northumberland) east of Toronto. I estimate greater then half the tax sales that come up in this area result from them. Also a lot of local realtors try to sell them but are not always truthful in how they protrary them.
There is a lot of good writeups on this site that refer to the dangers so I won't duplicate the work of other people who have provided a good background before me.
Always make sure you talke to the right municipal authorities before you committ.
Dave2
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Everyone should keep in mind that it is legal to build using an incinerating toilet, and possibly an aerobic or composting same; you may just have to argue your case with the health dept bloke who doesn't know all the rules.
My worry on crown land is the possibility of armed citizens (hunters) trespassing on your land thinking it is crown.
On another matter, I wish some of the members, who have had bad experiences, would stop dumping on RE agents: the agents I use, having screened them carefully, have made, and will continue to make, me money; one steered me onto a lapsed, yet still registered, subdivision: I estimate that I will make will north of 300k on it, and don't think that agents don't read this forum; the time may come when you really need an agent, and the one that could give you immeasurable help will tell you, nicely, to P off.
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Ernest:
I guess the real estate agent felt that it was better for you to make 300K on that deal rather than pocket it himself. How unselfish of him. If that is true you just proved how stupid they are!!!
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"Everyone should keep in mind that it is legal to build using an incinerating toilet, and possibly an aerobic or composting same"
Thats not accurate, Many towns zoning specifically state that a type 4 ( septic tile bed ) is required. The composting toilet does not deal with waste water and very few, if any towns, will allow you to build without grey water processing. As a general rule the towns require septic fields and you have to convince them otherwise.
The ontario clean water act came in in 2006 and many towns zonings were created before then and may not address the issue,
Unless a town zoning specifically states it is allowed, presume you cannot get a permit based on holding tanks or special toilets. I dont think they will accept "we dont take baths" as an answer.
The special toilets save water but do nothing to deal with the soaps, phosphates etc that come from the water in the house.
As per " don't think that agents don't read this forum" I know they do, amazingly enough..none seem to respond.
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Farrouk, you can't have it every which way from Sunday: how can some agents be cunning, crafty thieves who are always trying to take advantage of you, yet the ones that give me all kinds of help, including offering up a tremendous deal to me, are stupid? My agent didn't even want the purchase to go through him, but gave me all the names of those to contact, drove me out to the property, etc. You better believe that I will be selling through him.
I will admit that I've had to fire 1 or 2 agents (the second was perhaps a mutual agreement to have a parting of the ways), but I'm very happy with the treatment I have been accorded, and I will admit I've run into a couple who were slightly smarter than doorknobs, and one who epitomized the sleaziness of a 1950s used car salesman.
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Earnest:
Sorry I came on a bit stong in my last post. I use agents to sell all the time and some are very professional in their job. As long as both your interests are aligned things work out fine.
Case in point when thing go wrong.
At the end of our street in Niagara Falls lived a sweet little old widow who had a run down house on a triple wide lot. One day coming home from work I noticed a for sale sign. (not there in the morning). I called immediately and the agent said it was sold allready. Three offers all at asking price of $140k. Guess who got it??? It was bought in an another agents wifes name. A month later the severence notices were posted and the guy wanted 100K per lot. THe agents interests were not aligned with that of his client.
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That was the time to get in touch with her family, her lawyer, the RE council of ontario, or anyone who could have, and possibly would have, corrected the injustice. It may still not be too late at this point. When we see wrongs being perpetrated is when we could, perhaps, get involved to try to prevent them from happening. Even a call to the various consumer advocates working for the media might do some good.
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I'm just hoping that we gave the original poster the information to make an informed choice. Selling hunting campings as a "cottage" is just wrong... although I know it happens.
Most agents won't outright lie.. but if they say "maybe" to a question about if you can do this or that with a property.. the real answer is often a "no".