Ontario Tax Sale Property Forum
Tax Sale Forum => General => Topic started by: Dave2 on January 17, 2011, 10:10:06 PM
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Two years ago in Trent Hills this Tax sale was held: (early June 2009) Location can be seen on the attached map.
5. Roll 1435 229-040-04231
Part Lot 6, Concession 11 being Part 30 on RD 25
formerly the Township of Percy
Vacant Land
Minimum Tender Amount: $ 4141.53
At the time it went for was thought to be a high price of over $20,000 even then though the winning bid was only $50 about the second place bid. Some idiot from near Cobourg was the winning bidder and a guy named Netpred had the following comment:
My first reaction on #5 is holy crap. My second reaction is I wonder who is feeling pissed off, the person who came in second or the winner?
I saw these lots and considered putting in a bid at or near the minimum on the one across from the water as a long term gamble but decided that it wasn't worth the money. I can maybe understand a neighbour bidding, but this lot only had one neighbouring property with a structure on it. I don't think that you would get 20K on MLS. Stunned, absolutely stunned.
What was not at the time known the why of the fight and it illustrates the value of sticking in your backyard. The fight was over the future not the past.
The majority of properties in that sale in the same subdivision can never have anything done with them. With a recent rezoning they have effectively been frozen from being built on. There are a few exceptions one of which is the property in question which is now rezoned Rural Residential in advance of the wars to come. There are a couple of other elements of value but that is not the topic of todays discussion.
Referring to the attached map there is (now a township road as of January 11) with hydro bell etc. in the front of the property (on your left) and a line to the rear of the property which is actually an unopened road allowance.
Today I got a not unexpected notice in the mail. (Notiice of Public Meeting - Road Closing) The big landowner to the the right of the road (he has over 50 acreas of land) wants to close the road allowance and buy it. He has big plans for the the property to the east.
I have two weeks to prepare a strategy and the question is what should I do?
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The road allowance has been one of the hidden potential values in this property.
A copy of the survey is attached. It is unusual in that it is 3 dimensional and as a result costs more then just marking the pins.
1) There are two fundamental options which are dictated by the rules of road closing. If a road is closed the general rule is that portions of it shall be offered to the adjoining property owners first in the following priority and merged with their land.
a) A road allowance is most commonly 66 feet wide. Thus if both of the property owners want their share they get 33 feet. In my case this would add about about 13,000 sq. ft. to my property or about 0.3 of an acre meaning I now have almost 3 acres. The price is very affordable.
b) If I do not want my share the land owner across the road gets first crack at it.
2) Rather then buying the other fundamental option is to oppose the road closing.
3) Finally there is the option to negotiate. Question whom do I negotiate with and for what?
So people what would you do?
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Congrats Dave! I hope that you do well on this one. Just a few wise words that I once heard may apply here:
You never count your money when you're sittin' at the table.
There'll be time enough for countin' when the dealin's done.
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Reply in writing and sign in at the public meeting. Support the closing per se, but explain that with respect to that part of the road that abuts your land you would like to remain able to purchase the 33 feet to the center line. That is, you support the closing but with the one small exception. This will give you the right to appeal to the OMB if the town approves the application in it's existing form. Technically you have objected, sort of. You are under no obligation. Now sit back and wait to what you are offered, and by whom.
The biggest cost of adding unopened road allowance property is usually the cost of the reference plan, but of course you know this. This way you just may get the survey for free if you can cost justify the addition. Avoidance of an OMB hearing is usually worth about $10,000.00 to a serious developer.
Others such as Waltersworld know a lot more about the ins and outs of road closure strategy than I do so it will be interesting to follow the suggestions for gaming this one. In netpred's gambler terms you are probably well advised to "walk away", but for now you are in the fortunate position of being able to keep all your options open.
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My thinking is to buy the 33 feet, which is somewhat along the line of "pay off the balance of your winning bid & get the deed registered ASAP". Once you own it, you control it; if you don't, god knows what might come along to spoil your party.
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Hey Dave
I agree, hop on the bandwagon.
I lost the option to buy on delay by another neighbor (1 property on north side of ra and 5 of us on the south side) and has since been held up 7 years... the price has also trippled
good luck
Doug
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How much does normally municipality charge per squre feet for such properties ?
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Congrats Dave! I hope that you do well on this one. Just a few wise words that I once heard may apply here:
You never count your money when you're sittin' at the table.
There'll be time enough for countin' when the dealin's done.
When I have the money in the bank I will believe it. Going to get interesting around those parts. This is only one of a few issues that I will have to spend time on and let the other guys on the board scoop up the properties this year unless some rich guy from Trenton wants to buy me out for his new year round home. (Lot is 5 minutes drive from local beer store among other things but on a dead end road.)
I think this is the opening shot for a big subdivision development application. A local councillor who happens to be in the real estate industry said next 6 months might get interesting. I one of 8 landowners with property to the west (left side of drawing ) of the road and maybe the one with the longest frontage.
Topography is also an issue because the properties to the south are on a hill and a gulley which is classified as wetland. I am one of 3 - 4 properties that has a level grade with the land to the east.
The costs for the application are borne by the big landowner to the east. In the land business access is always worth money and it is very rare for a small lot to have two potential accesses. I am the agrieved party in this one like Tiger Woods former wife (I willl bring out the tears for dramative effect) :'(because someone in effect is trying to take away my legal rights of access.
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How much does normally municipality charge per squre feet for such properties ?
Low enough that it is not a factor. I believe about a $1,000 in total in this case but will check and advise. Do not expect same prices in downtown Toronto though.
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Reply in writing and sign in at the public meeting. Support the closing per se, but explain that with respect to that part of the road that abuts your land you would like to remain able to purchase the 33 feet to the center line. That is, you support the closing but with the one small exception. This will give you the right to appeal to the OMB if the town approves the application in it's existing form. Technically you have objected, sort of. You are under no obligation. Now sit back and wait to what you are offered, and by whom.
The biggest cost of adding unopened road allowance property is usually the cost of the reference plan, but of course you know this. This way you just may get the survey for free if you can cost justify the addition. Avoidance of an OMB hearing is usually worth about $10,000.00 to a serious developer.
As a general note I will not reveal all of my general strategy in public.
This application has all the earmarks of a planned professional approach under the guidance of an experienced planner or legal professional, (middle of winter, early in the session of a new council, beginning of the year.), and when I see that I have to find out whats going on. It suggests to me that I had better be careful not to underestimate this situation.
The strategy suggested here has a lot of merit. Buys time at little cost and keeps options open.
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Dave
Double frontage obviously gives you a lot of bargaining chips. I would definitely ask for the 33 feet. Depending on what the developer next door has in mind, you will likely find that he will approach you down the road to buy the back half of your property to be incorporated with his,,,so the bigger it is, the more you'll get back. 8)
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Dave
Double frontage obviously gives you a lot of bargaining chips. I would definitely ask for the 33 feet. Depending on what the developer next door has in mind, you will likely find that he will approach you down the road to buy the back half of your property to be incorporated with his,,,so the bigger it is, the more you'll get back. 8)
Asking for the 33 feet is a no brainer but what should be your priority extra land versus extra access is a much tricker question. If you look at my key map you can see that the size and shape of the properties involved is significantly different. Another very critical issue is buildable area. Ignoring the waterfront property for a second;
the property to the north (ie above mine) should ask for the additional land as it greatly complements the shape of the existing lot and more importantly the lot is much smaller then mine.
Not shown on the map but when you look at zoning the additional space maybe important to increase buildable area. Mine is the only one with a clean rezoned area that can all be built on.
Anther issue here is the other party in the game; the municipality. They have their own agenda. Sounds like a fun public meeting coming up.
What I hate about this business is when you have a property with some potential then all you get is hard work.
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First I would like to say thanks for everyone who responded and advice supplied.
I am setting my strategy but this will not be in the public domain until well after the event. Suggest someone followup around thanksgiving if they have not heard an update.
Interesting situation and not one I first thought.
Dave2
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Boy if I wanted to get something done through a council, the meeting on Tuesday had the perfect setting.
The worst winter storm in 2 years that was due to hit later that night and kept everyone except locals away. (Local weather office called it snowmagedon)
A long opening contenious argument about water and sewer budget rates that must have had 2 -3 dozen commentators and took way past its alloted time over 2 hours while members of the public argued with council members over $50 in added annual costs. Finally council shut it down or we would still be there marooned by the storm.
The road closing was last one on the main committee of adjustment agenda after which was just routine reports. By the time council got to us, most people had headed home to beat the storm. Needless to say after council had been beat up all night for spending money they were in no mood to fund a road opening that would cost well over $100,000 and benefit only around 1/2 dozen property owners.
I made it home just in time.
Vast majority of comments were for including; from the two big adjacent landowners. (not me). Finally got an insight into why and history. On one key section of road allowance many years ago (10 - 20 years or more) council of the day allowed an adjacent land owner to construct a septic system and road entranceway with a legal easement on the road right of way. They wanted to clean up title and this property owner has the legal first right on his section anyways. It does not effect the section I am adjacent too so will buy the road allowance acreage adjoining to my property and move on.