Ontario Tax Sale Property Forum
Tax Sale Forum => General => Topic started by: karriebell on June 01, 2012, 11:53:08 AM
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Ok so I went to my Tehkummah property to inspect my recently purchased acreage and the bonus camp that is on the property. I had to access the main gate to drive to the property so I have had to find the other owners to mail the keys for the lock I had to replace. The camp was in fact there, all contents were inside and needed a bit of an airing out and eviction of about 30 bats living on the outside tar paper wall covering, other than that it was all good. I found a name on the building indicating a different last name so I asked a neighbor if he new why the last name of the owner of the acreage beside me would have a camp in my property lines. "I found all the stakes and it is definitely in my property lines". I contacted by phone the owner beside me and he returned my call saying I can send the key to the address on my files. He also apologized for the confusion about the camp and said it was his father who built it in the 60`s on a guessed location and was aware it was not on his property lines but the prior owner said it was ok to use it the five days hunting season per year and did not have to be evicted. The father recently passed away in March of this year so I assume the land may be an inheritance to the present owner. I am not sure though.
He said I own all the land... however because of adverse possession "squatters rights" he still claims the camp as his. I told him that I already changed the locks and that it is no longer his and he had known the land was going to tax sale and did not bid. I told him he can still cross the property to get to his land but he can no longer access the camp. He said he is going to get a lawyer and I said do what you have to do. I already put no trespassing signs in the windows of the camp and after my very stressful convo with the prior camp builder`s son I immediatly called the Island Police and reported the conversation just in case anything happens to burn down or have further problems with the person. They took my information and said to let them know of any more future problems.
Is there anything I am missing? Have I done the right thing? Is there anything else I need to do ie: lawyer up or wait until he makes the first move? I also would like to know if I should contact the township and let them know this person is claiming a building even though the township was not aware it was there? He said he was going to call them, should I beat him to the punch?
Please help as I am new at this and respect what the "pros" have to advise.
Thank you
What do I need to do to arm myself against this problem! ???
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Wow - best of luck to you - I think by law you are the rightful owner... is the building worth the fight?
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Very Simple. Be proactive in this case.Contact a lawyer on Manitoulin ( Blaine Armstrong would be my recommendation) and have him send a letter to your neighbour .... Due to unforseen liability issues that could arise, you cannot allow your neighbour or anyone else to use the cabin.
It will cost you a little but a lawyers letterhead sent by registered mail has more impact on certain people.
Hope it all works out.
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I do not believe adverse possession survives a tax sale.
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Kariebell:
On my last post related to this subject I advised the following:
I would inspect it on the first trip and try to gain entry but not force it yet if it is locked. Take lots of photos and inspect it to see if you can see who built it. Your namesake neighbour would be a good spot to start. At this time of year it is not likely to be occupied if it is a hunting camp.
Note particularly the entranceway and I might have a staple gun with a to whom it may concern letter you can staple to the door.
Remember if you are not a deer hunter but say like swimming and fishing you might be able to get an interesting shared use of the cabin and some lease payments as well.
Unfortunately my advice was not followed and we now face the confrontation escalation that I was attempting to avoid in the first phase. It may have been unavoidable but personally as my dad once said: "Wars are easier to start then to stop" To answer your question I need some facts.
a) Can you live with someone else occupying the cabin for 5 days a year in late October / November? i.e. are you a deer hunter or not?
b) Is the property registered in land titles or not?
c) How much of the property do you lose if he gets the cabin in percentage terms.
You have to remember the Ontario court system is ponderous, expensive and slow. While I don't know the case in Manitoulin the last time I checked in southern Ontario in one juristiction it took 3 years for a case to come to trial during which the tresspasser will likely try to continue hunting.
It is likely you are going to pay more for the trial then at the tax sale if you lose because you are liable to pay the other parties costs. >:(
Unfortunately to a number of members of the public tax sale buyers are seen as "vultures" and treated as such. The fact is now you have disturbed a sleeping giant and that is something I try to avoid.
If you are headed to the courts first thing I would do is file memo in writing the discussion and more importantly your cabin owners admission. I might even swear it as a declaration in front of a commissioner of oaths quickly with the date as noted.
Unfortunately by awaking a sleeping giant you have lost the best chance to get ownership of the cabin verified without a fight. All right Mr. Netpred or PFM for our usual beer bet what was it?
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"He said I own all the land... however because of adverse possession "squatters rights" he still claims the camp as his. I told him that I already changed the locks and that it is no longer his and he had known the land was going to tax sale and did not bid. I told him he can still cross the property to get to his land but he can no longer access the camp. He said he is going to get a lawyer and I said do what you have to do. I already put no trespassing signs in the windows of the camp and after my very stressful convo with the prior camp builder`s son I immediatly called the Island Police and reported the conversation just in case anything happens to burn down or have further problems with the person. They took my information and said to let them know of any more future problems.
The problem you have is the clown asking you to let him use it for 5 days a year..then being an idiot and claiming adverse possession.. He is getting legal advice at a bar from the town drunk and is being a typical hunter..ignore your land rights while he will defend his "rights"
The fun part is that these clowns will keep spewing legal bs and even tell you " I spoke to my lawyer who said".etc etc . Tell him to get another lawyer ( polite way of telling him he is full of sh*t) If they cut the locks call the cops . Dont deal with this yourself , They wont charge them but cops may convince them that they have no right to the land or at least to really get legal advice.
You have placed no trespassing signs, which he will ignore.. so you cant be held liable for injurys.
There is no adverse possession claim as this is in land titles, it is not fenced off and they abandon it for 300 or more days a year. They have absolutely no adverse possession claim and are trespassing. You own the cabin however they can claim the contents , Be sure you allow them to get the contents
As per lawsuits, they have no rights so they may talk sh*t but they wont sue.
Squatters rights do not exist anymore except under extreme circumstances which he must meet.. http://www.perlaw.ca/en/newsroom/publications/2011/6/15/possessory-title-the-new-adverse-possession-owen (http://www.perlaw.ca/en/newsroom/publications/2011/6/15/possessory-title-the-new-adverse-possession-owen)
The fact he had the owners permission for the hut..voids claim..fact it is not fenced..voids claim.. fact that it was only a few days a year...voids claim
If he wanted to perjure himself, and the previous owners cant be found...and the judge is his brother.... the best he can win is the cabin..but not the land around it as its not fenced ....he could then access the cabin by repelling from a helicopter from a legal minimum altitude of 500 ft .
Should he get a better attitude and you decide that a few days a year wont hurt , do not worry that letting them use the cabin in any way affects your property rights as long as you remove the lock . They do not now and will never have adverse possession rights.
However odds are is that he wont give up his "claim" until the cops actually have a nice chat with him and he finally sees a lawyer.
If this becomes a real pain..take a chainsaw to the cabin and get rid of it..ends the argument for good
Does he have deeded access across the land to get to his??
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The problem you have is the clown asking you to let him use it for 5 days a year..then being an idiot and claiming adverse possession.. He is getting legal advice at a bar from the town drunk and is being a typical hunter..ignore your land rights while he will defend his "rights"
The fun part is that these clowns will keep spewing legal bs and even tell you " I spoke to my lawyer who said".etc etc . Tell him to get another lawyer ( polite way of telling him he is full of sh*t) If they cut the locks call the cops . Dont deal with this yourself , They wont charge them but cops may convince them that they have no right to the land or at least to really get legal advice.
You have placed no trespassing signs, which he will ignore.. so you cant be held liable for injurys. There is no adverse possession claim as this is in land titles, it is not fenced off and they abandon it for 300 or more days a year.
If this becomes a real pain..take a chainsaw to the cabin and get rid of it..ends the argument for good Does he have deeded access across the land to get to his??
PFM: You and I have a different philosophy on life and If I can get a free cabin use for 90% of the first year especially if it is a bonus to my purchase, I will take it.
I will save Netpred's liver (he has won enough beer already) and respond to PFM indirectly. What I was going to say has the downside of losing this hunting season for deer if that is important to you and I was going to offer the (we will call him the trespasser) a one year only lease for use of the Cabin and the land for a Dollar for the hunting season alone. (I would allow preseason preparation if requested). Surprisingly I might offer this as an opening round early in the discussion. Why because he is my neighbour and whatever happens will still be around
This would use a hunting lease as is common in the United States and I would tell the other party that I require it to avoid liability caused by he or his guest's use of the land. No lease no use. Why because once he signs that lease he acknowledges that you own the land and the cabin in a legal sense and the whole nonsense about quit claims or squatter's rights is forever extinguished.
Legally you cannot claim ownership rights if you "lease or rent" the property because the owner has allowed you on his property.
I would also talk quietly about access rights to his property and might be willing to give him a right of way legally on title long term lets say as a reward for continued good behaviour.
At this point I will note one thing. Obviously my relations with my neighbour start off much differently then having to talk about chainsawing the cabin and cutting off the neigbouring property access particularly if I start the relationship by offering him continued use for one year.
If my neighbour is a complete and utter asshole Rambo, as the agrieved party at that point I will respond in kind later but next year.
Rural property boundary issues are more common then people think even under land titles because if you check carefully not all properties especially rural ones have properly defined boundaries. There were at least two tax sale cases in southen ontario where this was the case earlier this year, one of which the owner even constructed a dam on his neighbours property.
PFM you have assumed a couple of facts; one of which is the property is propely registered in land titles. If that is not the case I believe from memory (I will allow myself to be corrected by the more experienced members of the board) a neighbouring property quit claim is one of the few things that can survive a tax sale. (that is why I like islands; no neighbours)
Kariebell: I prefer to have a "vodka" with my neighbours if that is possible. This case shows the differing views on life we all have and as the comedian Bill Cosby said so aptly," Different strokes for different folks. " Hope everthing works out well.
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First, congratulations on what seems to be a fabulous purchase.
Second, a tax sale does not extinguish possessory title. The Municipal Act provides:
(c) any interest or title acquired by adverse possession by abutting landowners before the registration of the tax deed. 2001, c. 25, s. 379 (7); 2006, c. 32, Sched. A, s. 156 (3).[/color][/color]
Third, while PFM is correct that adverse posession is normally not possible in land titles, it is possible if the possessory title arose prior to first registration.
Fourth, it probably does not matter in your case since possession must be adverse, open and continuous. As PFM has pointed out, you can't get advese possession when permission is granted to use the property.
Netpred:
As you are better versed in these matters then us mere mortals, Karriebell needs one more piece of information, to know her legal position. How can she tell if the property is registered in land titles or not from her deed? If not you have to check the registry to see what was historically on title and what might be in dispute.
That will tell her what her legal position is and more importantly what her neighbour will be told by his lawyer if he decides to push it that far. If it is in land titles by by adverse possession claim.
My lease approach was a mechanism to get him to acknowledge it and to be able to prove it if it got to that.
Assuming that it is in land titles, what happens going forward is strongly dependent on what Karriebell and her friends wish to do with the land. If they are deer hunters it is one situation. Non deer hunters much different.
Assuming the non deer hunter case for a minute, going forward after the first year I might be prepared to lease the land and use of the cabin during hunting season for a traditional northern ontario share of the meat they get. I will use the cabin during the off hunting season.
Why because the "authorized" users will keep non authorized tresspassers away. In effect they protect your property. I know that is not the way you and PFM see it as we have had several debates in the past on variants of this in tax sale property buys many of which are in private.
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Dave:
You can tell if it is in Land Titles because it will have an "LT" in the PIN/legal description. Nearly all properties in Ontario have been converted to Land Titles.
Again, we disagree on the carrot/stick approach. If the OP permits the hunters to use the camp there may be liability issues if somebody shoots a person or causes damage. Although it may not entirely exclude liability, proper posting may be cheap insurance. Besides, sooner or later, a stick will be needed here so why not now? In addition, the cabin belongs to the OP. Why should she share it with a bunch of redneck trespassers who think that they know everything, but don't even know enough to build on their own property?
I suggest that the OP give her a lawyer a quick call and ask the question to an expert.
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Dave:
You can tell if it is in Land Titles because it will have an "LT" in the PIN/legal description. Nearly all properties in Ontario have been converted to Land Titles.
Again, we disagree on the carrot/stick approach. If the OP permits the hunters to use the camp there may be liability issues if somebody shoots a person or causes damage. Although it may not entirely exclude liability, proper posting may be cheap insurance. Besides, sooner or later, a stick will be needed here so why not now? In addition, the cabin belongs to the OP. Why should she share it with a bunch of redneck trespassers who think that they know everything, but don't even know enough to build on their own property?
I suggest that the OP give her a lawyer a quick call and ask the question to an expert.
Netpred:
You and PFM and I know we are never going to agree on the correct approach to this and related type of situations because there is no one correct answer. It is interesting that in all the posts on this board and other writings not much has been written about this issue of the best way of gaining possession of your winnings.
As someone much more experienced then you or I once said with tax sales there is usually something wrong with the owner or the property. In this case it is the neighbour who apparently has the problem not the owner because of something that happened 30 years ago.
On the liability side that is what the lease was for. As I said earlier no lease no occupancy. In this case where I had an unepected bonus I want to maximize my gain from it but because it is is a bonus I will be satisfied with less then 100%. How important it is depends on your need and desires for the land. AS a deer hunter you will have to force the issue? As a non deer hunter like I am I could get the benefits of the deer hunters through a shared use concept.
Part of the difference in approach comes with the (tax sale) game we hunt. You and PFM are big game hunters so if necessary you are prepared to spend the extra funds to enforce your goals because it is a cost of doing business. I typically hunt smaller game then you and thus have a smaller margin to play with.
As a result I tend to try to avoid the costs of people like lawyers who make money from encouraging me to have a fight. If in spite of my efforts the other side wants a fight I can respond in kind.
I agree with your last sentence but as a non lawyer once I call mine it starts to eat into my winnings which in the end means I have less money to fund your beer winnings. I bet you never thought of that perspective.
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Dave:
I have just one question for you: Who has been buying and who has been drinking?
Also, maybe PFM is a big game hunter, but you know that I am just a big talker - actually a big thirsty talker!
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Thank you very much for all your responses. :)
Dave2 I did go up and take pictures and even took a home video of the inside of the Camp like you advised. I know you suggested I not break the locks however I had to break a lock on the main gate which several owners use and one of the neighbors helped me get contact info for all the other land owners so I could mail them a key. One of the owners was the abutting neighbor "cabin claimer" so I think the complication was just fast tracked to now rather than hunting season. It is also a four hour drive to look in windows and I did notify the police I did break the padlocks.
a) Can you live with someone else occupying the cabin for 5 days a year in late October / November? i.e. are you a deer hunter or not? I am fearfull of allowing someone into the cabin that may hold a grudge and destroy it. My insurance company covers liability of the land but will not insure the camp. I am in fact a deer hunter and will be there for bow and gun season.
b) Is the property registered in land titles or not? I think it is but will check when I get home. I did have infomation sent to me of the prior owners when I did a title search and the information came from the Land Registry Office in Gore Bay via Hutchinson Title Searchers. There was no easement etc and no deeded permission of land crossers and no mention of the "Cabin claimer".
c) How much of the property do you lose if he gets the cabin in percentage terms. [/font] [/color] The Cabin is build approximately 250ft east of the property line and at least 700ft from the North property line. The allure of 93.125 acres is not the same as a full 100. See attached map of property.
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If he wanted to perjure himself, and the previous owners cant be found...and the judge is his brother.... the best he can win is the cabin..but not the land around it as its not fenced ....he could then access the cabin by repelling from a helicopter from a legal minimum altitude of 500 ft .
Does he have deeded access across the land to get to his?? PFM you crack me up! Love your answers!! Clink Cheers!
"Cabin claimer" does not have deeded access, he uses my property to get to his. I offered him out of good faith permission to take the woodstove and replace it with another used stove as he claimed it had sentimental value. He came back with " well Its just a stove." I also offered his dirty blankets and bits of string everywhere but he has not indicated he wants any of it. I think I am going to bag as much stuff and put it around the side of the camp for him to pick up if he contacts me again.
Kariebell: I prefer to have a "vodka" with my neighbours if that is possible. This case shows the differing views on life we all have and as the comedian Bill Cosby said so aptly," Different strokes for different folks. " Hope everthing works out well.
Dave2 I always will try to have a Vodka with the neighbors, a few of my girls have shared in what I call "a six shotter drink" during these stressful times of my real estate ignorance.
Netpred (c) any interest or title acquired by adverse possession by abutting landowners before the registration of the tax deed. 2001, c. 25, s. 379 (7); 2006, c. 32, Sched. A, s. 156 (3).
Third, while PFM is correct that adverse possession is normally not possible in land titles, it is possible if the possessory title arose prior to first registration.
I have this written on my Municipal Tax recovery letterhead. I have tried to understand what this means. It is my understanding that the possessory claim would have had to be placed before the tax sale and that it would of showed on the the title search? I have not seen that.
I look forward to the day I can sit around the fire and listen to the wolves. Hopefully this guy comes to his senses and goes build himself another camp on his own property. Next issue any ideas on a dog run for a 4 lb Chihuahua in a land full of predators? lol just kidding I think I have that one figured out.... maybe or do I? hmmm
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I'm just putting this out there as a matter of interest/ observation and looking at it another way. Are you are depending on The Google and pins put on a generated map to decide where the property lines are, or did you physically see the corner pins? How do you know the Lat/ Long of your corners? Usually hunting gangs organize their boundaries by large rocks/ swamps and what is convenient and historical (not that it is right but that's the way it's been). In speaking with surveyors over the years, bush property lines are always contentious. It is my experience that they (surveyors) need to physically be on the ground and do the work (which is a scary proposition financially)to find the property line/ pins. I find even municipalities that use GIS aren't very accurate when mapping property lines. Maybe all the surveyors just see me coming and can in fact plot corners easily it would be great if they could.
In this case seeing that the cabin is so close to the property line could the old "owner/ squatter" or his lawyer not say it is in fact his property/ cabin and tell you to go get a survey to prove it's yours? I'm not saying this is right/ wrong, just looking for other opinion?
Congrats on the purchase I'm sure it will work out.
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Thank you very much for all your responses. :)
It is also a four hour drive to look in windows and I did notify the police I did break the padlocks.
I am fearfull of allowing someone into the cabin that may hold a grudge and destroy it. My insurance company covers liability of the land but will not insure the camp. I am in fact a deer hunter and will be there for bow and gun season.[/i]
Karriebell:
We have different experiences and different approachs to problems. The bottom line though in this case is that you want the property for the same use and at same time as the other party so no real compromise is possible that would be acceptable to both parties. If both rabbits want the same carrot the 'carrot' approach does not work. So be it. I usually start off that way and if it does not work then I can always fall back on what I will call the "netpred" approach.
My personal experience was/is a little different then yours in that myself (and others in my family) shared a hunting property for a long time (much longer then a decade) with a bunch of deer hunters. We hunted rabbits and parttridge and we both stayed out of each others way. For personal safety reasons we did not hunt during deer season. They did not hunt at other times and that is what I was hoping to see if there was a possible compromise like we enjoyed.
Given the distance from the property you cannot be there all the time, so having an authorized party use it in which they take responsibility for their own liability and the care of the property while they are there. My own experience with compromises is people do not like to shoot themselves in the foot so if he was granted use during deer hunting season he would take care of the property. My philosophy is not new and you can see it referenced in the earlier reference posts that Netpred mentioned and we have had some strong face to face arguments about it.
In my case I have allowed the use of my property for a local camp to beach canoes in memory of a tragedy a decade ago. (see article) I say no fires and ask them to stay on the beach, respect the property and I mention no liability.
http://www.sootoday.com/content/news/full_story.asp?StoryNumber=3364
I grant it annually and so far they have respected my rights. Its not how some of the people play the game here but that is I approach life and generally I have good relations with my neighbours. If push comes to shove I am not afraid to defend my opinion and of course that is why I lose so many beers to Netpred. Unfortunately losses are not new to my family as I am a descendent of the losing side of what has been called one of the most famous feuds in Scotland
The head of my ancestor is on the crest of our enemies the McNabs.
If you are ever driving by Cobourg look me up for a good coffee or something stronger depending on the time of day.
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Jima I did go physically to each corner marker this is how I made the map. It was a lot of walking because the atv trails did not extend to the posts.
Netpred there is an LT on my pin number.
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Good lord Dave2 that's a horrible way to show the family album! My family ancestoral roots are from Scotland too. We saved the King by turning the bull. The Manitoulin is where my ancestors and many other families settled from Scotland. Thanks again for all the help I really do appreciate it. :)
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Good lord Dave2 that's a horrible way to show the family album! My family ancestoral roots are from Scotland too. We saved the King by turning the bull. The Manitoulin is where my ancestors and many other families settled from Scotland. Thanks again for all the help I really do appreciate it. :)
Karriebell:
The full story can be found here.
http://www.mcnabb.us/history/mcnabblegend.htm
I heard the oral family history from my paternal grandmother as a boy of 11. Even she admitted we were a rough and ready bunch, but you know those highlanders. Not many people can be like us being so bad that the king of Scotland has to say get rid of these bandits 500 years ago. As one Scottish historian said the true story makes the Hatfields and McCoy feud look like a Sunday picnic. The current head of the McNab clan is a direct descendent of one of the clan members
who shall we say taught my ancestors that it is not a good idea to steal your neighbours Xmas dinner.
You can see from the family background why I am tempted to at least try the "carrot" approach first because sometimes the stick can backfire on you.
Bottom line here is that your ownership of the property should survive a quit claim, and frankly this saga switches to your enjoyment and personal matters related to the property which is where we bid adieu and move onto the next saga.