Ontario Tax Sale Property Forum
Tax Sale Forum => Questions and Answers => Topic started by: prior1 on June 13, 2007, 07:22:25 PM
-
URGENT QUESTION: This was posted on this site: The minimum bid posted by the Municipality includes all taxes and costs of conducting the sale (advertising, admins fees, etc.) to that point in time.
MY URGENT QUESTION:
While speaking to the Treasurer of Municipality I am interested in, she told me that the minimum bid (did not include) (does not include) and I asked her what the extra fees there would be on top of the tendered amount and she told me, advertising cost, of which she put three in I believe at a cost of $2400.00 per advertisement, plus approximately $1000.00 for legal fees, plus outstanding taxes. Also GST on bid. If this land is intended for a residential home, of which it is just empty land, is it exempt, as it is a legal building lot for a residential home.
I am really confused, after what the treasurer tokd me, and she was the treasurer. Confused as it states on this site that all of these cost are included in the minimum bid.
-
That sounds very strange to me. My legal costs on a recent property were about $175 paid separately out of my own pocket to the lawyer that I chose. All of the other legal work such as registering the deed was done by a lawyer paid for by the municipality.
Other than that it was just GST and accumulated taxes.
-
Yes it sounds strange to me also. I am new to this, but he rinformation is conflicting with what it says on this site, and what it says on the tender, compared to what it says on the municipality site, which I copied and pasted below. Any additional comments or know how would be appreciated.
I don't know what they mean by the penalties and interest, any other applicable charges and feel this should be listed on their tender form, and state exactly what they are, and how much they are, so there is no guessing games, as to who is correct, what is correct and where the correct information is, so a person can decide on their tendering amount without getting in hotwater, that they would not be aware of: I think the municipalities should be responsible for stating this in plain English, in order to reach a viable tendering amount.
This sale is governed by the Municipal Act. The successful purchasers will be required to pay the amount tendered plus accumulated taxes, penalties and interest, any other applicable charges, GST if applicable, and the relevant land transfer tax within fourteen (14) days of being notified that he/she is the successful purchaser.
-
Unless you misunderstood, it sounds like a court challenge. You do have to pay back-taxes, interest, etc.. But this is the first I've heard about the advertising cost.
-
I believe the Treasurer in this case is mistaken. Reading the Municipal Act and Regulation it is clear that legal costs and advertising are to included in the cancellation price.
The penalties and interests that are charges is a municipal act term for the late charges that are placed on outstanding taxes - usually 1.25% per month (but it can vary). Of course additional taxes levied from the date of advertisement is simply to close the time gap and usually minimal. The other charges they refer to are things like: week cutting charges; costs of by-law enforcement re: boarding up the building, etc... - don't forget we are talking about derelict properties, and other things can come up from the date of the advertisement to the actual sale and closing date.
Definitely the ad and legal charges are in the cancellation price. Most municipalities have a by-law which establishes a base rate for these things, and they are automaticaly added to the taxes owing when it is registered. I don't believe that given the fact that there is only one property being advertised, and the cancellation price is only $3500 that these things have been included. You will probably see this sale cancelled, and re-issued in a coupla months with a much higher cancellation price (probably closer to $10,000). 8)
-
Thank you Frank.
There is no house on this property, and is mainly a bush lot with an opened area and only a storage building and they also have several cars that look moveable, and one old one, that looks like it would have to be towed away, and there is also a fifth wheel trailer they are staying in that would have to be removed and I don't know who is responsible for that and I don't know what other things can come up from the date of the advertisement to the actual sale and closing date.
I believe the Treasurer in this case is mistaken. Reading the Municipal Act and Regulation it is clear that legal costs and advertising are to included in the cancellation price.
There is also no hydro and just to do a survey of how to run the poles is almost 10,000 and that doesn't count cutting of any trees, and pins or something at the hydro poles if installed later. This is just a study cost of how much it would cost to survey the running of the hydro and does not count installing the hydro poles or hydro lines and I do not know what that would cost, and to do the survery to come to a cost of installing hydro has to paid up front. Very costly.
Again thank you for your input.
The penalties and interests that are charges is a municipal act term for the late charges that are placed on outstanding taxes - usually 1.25% per month (but it can vary). Of course additional taxes levied from the date of advertisement is simply to close the time gap and usually minimal. The other charges they refer to are things like: week cutting charges; costs of by-law enforcement re: boarding up the building, etc... - don't forget we are talking about derelict properties, and other things can come up from the date of the advertisement to the actual sale and closing date.
Definitely the ad and legal charges are in the cancellation price. Most municipalities have a by-law which establishes a base rate for these things, and they are automaticaly added to the taxes owing when it is registered. I don't believe that given the fact that there is only one property being advertised, and the cancellation price is only $3500 that these things have been included. You will probably see this sale cancelled, and re-issued in a coupla months with a much higher cancellation price (probably closer to $10,000). 8)
-
Getting rid of any old cars, and inhabitants would be your problem after you get the deed (presuming you are successful bidder).
-
Getting rid of any old cars, and inhabitants would be your problem after you get the deed (presuming you are successful bidder).
my question is about the cars/trailers/chattel.....what can you legally do with them? They don't belong to you, so can one just dispose of them if it's on your property? ???
Can you do anything else with the stuff/junk that's left behind, 'cause technically, it's not really yours.....or is it? ???
Inquiring minds, want to know :o
-
You could give the current owner an opportunity to remove their junk - but put a timeline on it. You will probably need to start eviction procedures if they are living in the trailer.
You can't legally sell the vehicles since you don't have the ownership papers, but you could probably hire a salvage company to come in and scrap it all - once you own the property, you could get rid of anything that is on it since it is no longer legally there.
You really should consult with your lawyer and the best plan, depending on the situation you find yourself in. Be ready for a hassle from the current owner - sounds like there could be some real red-necks lurking.
-
Hi Frank.
Called the treasurer this morning and made her aware of the tender inclusions and am waiting for her to get back to me.
I know these cars, trailer etc. would not be included. I think the only thing that could remain, is the wooden storage shed but would have to clairfy that also with the treasurer.
My main concern at the moment is the tender amount inclusions as you stated the tender amount includes advertising fees and legal fees, and that the tender amount, if the amount to be paid, plus accumulated taxes, and relavent land transfer tax.
Frank, as you stated on here that: The Municipal Act and Regulation it is clear that legal costs and advertising are included in the cancellation price.
My question: what happens if we did put in the tender from picked up from the Municipality which states one is reponsible for the tender amount, and being responsible for the tender amount, plus accumulated taxes, and relavent land transfer tax. As it is does not state about these extra fees of advertising cost, and legal fees on the tender, can the legally make your pay them, does sound like it according the what you said, it says in the Municipal Act and Regulations.
Please let me know what you feel on us doing this.
Thank You Frank - will let you know what the Treasurer says to me when she returns my call.
You could give the current owner an opportunity to remove their junk - but put a timeline on it. You will probably need to start eviction procedures if they are living in the trailer.
You can't legally sell the vehicles since you don't have the ownership papers, but you could probably hire a salvage company to come in and scrap it all - once you own the property, you could get rid of anything that is on it since it is no longer legally there.
You really should consult with your lawyer and the best plan, depending on the situation you find yourself in. Be ready for a hassle from the current owner - sounds like there could be some real red-necks lurking.
-
My question: what happens if we did put in the tender from picked up from the Municipality which states one is reponsible for the tender amount, and being responsible for the tender amount, plus accumulated taxes, and relavent land transfer tax. As it is does not state about these extra fees of advertising cost, and legal fees on the tender, can the legally make your pay them, does sound like it according the what you said, it says in the Municipal Act and Regulations.
Firstly, the Treasurer could care less what you do with any chattels that get left behind by the current owner.
As to your question, you could end up in court. If you refused to pay the extras for advertising and legal if requested on the basis that they were supposed to be included in the cancellation price. The Treasurer, could withhold your deposit on the grounds that you failed to close, or you close and pay the extra and you sue for it after (could cost you more for a lawyer than what you might get - so decide if it is worth it and write it off as a cost of doing business, and hopefully you still make a profit). Or, the Treasurer could see the light and decide that closing with you would not be in the financial best interest of the Municipality - and cancel the proceedings, and start all over. The final alternative, is the the Treasurer realises the mistake but decides that it would be wiser to just close with you and take the lump of coal - ie. write-off the mistake. 8)
-
Hi Frank.
Thank you for the info, but still do not get how the municipality can do this when it states right on the tender:
This sale is governed by the Municipal Act, 2001 and the Municiapl Tax Sals rules made under that Act. The successful purchaser will be required to pay the amount tender plus accumulated taxes and the relevant land transer tax. as all of this is stated on the form picked up directly from the Corporation of the Town of Mississippi Mills and as far as I feel, this should be legal and binding, and if there advertising fees and legal fees were not to be included, I feel it should be stated on this Tender letter. The only thing it says the Lands do not included mobile home situate on the lands, if any.
My question: what happens if we did put in the tender from picked up from the Municipality which states one is reponsible for the tender amount, and being responsible for the tender amount, plus accumulated taxes, and relavent land transfer tax. As it is does not state about these extra fees of advertising cost, and legal fees on the tender, can the legally make your pay them, does sound like it according the what you said, it says in the Municipal Act and Regulations.
Firstly, the Treasurer could care less what you do with any chattels that get left behind by the current owner.
As to your question, you could end up in court. If you refused to pay the extras for advertising and legal if requested on the basis that they were supposed to be included in the cancellation price. The Treasurer, could withhold your deposit on the grounds that you failed to close, or you close and pay the extra and you sue for it after (could cost you more for a lawyer than what you might get - so decide if it is worth it and write it off as a cost of doing business, and hopefully you still make a profit). Or, the Treasurer could see the light and decide that closing with you would not be in the financial best interest of the Municipality - and cancel the proceedings, and start all over. The final alternative, is the the Treasurer realises the mistake but decides that it would be wiser to just close with you and take the lump of coal - ie. write-off the mistake. 8)
-
Thank you for the info, but still do not get how the municipality can do this when it states right on the tender:
That is why God created lawyers, judges, and the courts. I've had occasion to use them myself when I felt agrieved.
Good luck
-
Hello Frank.
I guess so, but I think I am getting too stressed, as the law should make things very clear as far as I am concerned. They should, the government in what ever level should provide a package including all neccessary information needed,copy of deed, survey all outstanding debt and exact amounts owing and to whom, along with the tender, for a specific price instead of people having to run around feeling like their heads are going to blow up. I think it would be better to find a lot, with hydro and am feeling this is not worth the fight, all of these cost, hydro, just for the survey of which is the best way to run it approx. 10,000 and that doesn't even include the actual installation of the hyro lines, poles, cutting of trees in the way, branches, plus something else, pins or something needed at some poles plus taxes. I think it would be probably close to 25,000 and up for this total installing plus all of these other fees on the tender, minimum bid, etc. I don't think this property is worth this.
Thank you for all of your help.
Thank you for the info, but still do not get how the municipality can do this when it states right on the tender:
That is why God created lawyers, judges, and the courts. I've had occasion to use them myself when I felt agrieved.
Good luck
-
Another thought. I don't think the municipalities put these tenders in plain enough English for the ordinary person. There has to be someone regulating these laws, of what is and what is not included and what can, and cannot be included in these tenders, at a higher level of goverment above the municipal level and I would like to know who to get to the bottom of things, all of these mixed questions and answers is really stressfull and makes one want to stop looking and dealing with all of this.
Thanks again.
Thank you for the info, but still do not get how the municipality can do this when it states right on the tender:
That is why God created lawyers, judges, and the courts. I've had occasion to use them myself when I felt agrieved.
Good luck
-
Another thought. I don't think the municipalities put these tenders in plain enough English for the ordinary person. There has to be someone regulating these laws, of what is and what is not included and what can, and cannot be included in these tenders, at a higher level of goverment above the municipal level and I would like to know who to get to the bottom of things, all of these mixed questions and answers is really stressfull and makes one want to stop looking and dealing with all of this.
Take a chill pill. You have to realize firstly, that the intent of these laws is simply to enable the municipality to collect its taxes. Not to do you a big favour. The municipality is under no obligation to obtain the highest and best price, nor can they legally provide you with access to the property or any guarantee of condition, costs, etc.. That is why we do not ever bid up to what we think the property might fetch on the market - there are unforseen costs and you can get bitten. If this is going to wear on your nerves, then get out of the game and go pay market value for something that is 100% guaranteed and has the good housekeeping seal of approval.
-
Life is full of surprises. To loose 20% is very painful. Is possible to cancel the MO or bank draft?
-
Hi Ion,
If yours isn't the highest or second highest tender, you'll get your 20% back. If its the second highest, then you'll get your 20% back when the highest bidder pays his tender (around 14 days). Your tender can be cancelled until the day of the tax sale. You have to submit in writing that you wish to have the tender cancelled. Call the municipality and they will direct you on how to do this.
Sasha
-
That was good for a laugh. ;)
If you're getting all stressed about a tax sale over a cheap property with abandoned vehicles on it, then maybe tax sales aren't the best way to go. This is a speculative venture.
Getting hydro to a lot absolutely doesn't require a survey. I never got a survey on my cottage lot and I had to get 2 poles run, trees cleared and a 200 feet underground cable run from the last pole.
The cost was less than most people would think, and worth it considering the alternatives (gas generator or live like Amish people).
Many people seem to get surveys without a need for them. Some of my neighbours have told me they had surveys done for $1000-$1500 and then when I asked them why, a typical response is "aren't I supposed to?" or "I don't know?".
Hello Frank.
I guess so, but I think I am getting too stressed, as the law should make things very clear as far as I am concerned. They should, the government in what ever level should provide a package including all neccessary information needed,copy of deed, survey all outstanding debt and exact amounts owing and to whom, along with the tender, for a specific price instead of people having to run around feeling like their heads are going to blow up. I think it would be better to find a lot, with hydro and am feeling this is not worth the fight, all of these cost, hydro, just for the survey of which is the best way to run it approx. 10,000 and that doesn't even include the actual installation of the hyro lines, poles, cutting of trees in the way, branches, plus something else, pins or something needed at some poles plus taxes. I think it would be probably close to 25,000 and up for this total installing plus all of these other fees on the tender, minimum bid, etc. I don't think this property is worth this.
Thank you for all of your help.
Thank you for the info, but still do not get how the municipality can do this when it states right on the tender:
That is why God created lawyers, judges, and the courts. I've had occasion to use them myself when I felt agrieved.
Good luck
-
It would be necessary to get a survey if you were deciding to build on your property. A building permit will not be issued without drawings that included the survey.
-
This was not for a quote on a survey of the property. It was for Hydro one to come out and decide which was the best way to run the lines, from the closet pole on this and was for 2.5 kilometers and they quoted me almost 10,000 upfront and this did not include the installation of the poles and hyrdo to the lot, so very costly. I wasn't afraid of the tax sale, but the cost of the hydro to do this plan by hydro one, plus the cost of hydro poles and have the hydro run to the property, which this 10,000 did not include.
I don't know if the tender went through on this property or not, as I did not bother because of the hydro one cost.
That was good for a laugh. ;)
If you're getting all stressed about a tax sale over a cheap property with abandoned vehicles on it, then maybe tax sales aren't the best way to go. This is a speculative venture.
Getting hydro to a lot absolutely doesn't require a survey. I never got a survey on my cottage lot and I had to get 2 poles run, trees cleared and a 200 feet underground cable run from the last pole.
The cost was less than most people would think, and worth it considering the alternatives (gas generator or live like Amish people).
Many people seem to get surveys without a need for them. Some of my neighbours have told me they had surveys done for $1000-$1500 and then when I asked them why, a typical response is "aren't I supposed to?" or "I don't know?".
Hello Frank.
I guess so, but I think I am getting too stressed, as the law should make things very clear as far as I am concerned. They should, the government in what ever level should provide a package including all neccessary information needed,copy of deed, survey all outstanding debt and exact amounts owing and to whom, along with the tender, for a specific price instead of people having to run around feeling like their heads are going to blow up. I think it would be better to find a lot, with hydro and am feeling this is not worth the fight, all of these cost, hydro, just for the survey of which is the best way to run it approx. 10,000 and that doesn't even include the actual installation of the hyro lines, poles, cutting of trees in the way, branches, plus something else, pins or something needed at some poles plus taxes. I think it would be probably close to 25,000 and up for this total installing plus all of these other fees on the tender, minimum bid, etc. I don't think this property is worth this.
Thank you for all of your help.
Thank you for the info, but still do not get how the municipality can do this when it states right on the tender:
That is why God created lawyers, judges, and the courts. I've had occasion to use them myself when I felt agrieved.
Good luck
-
It would be necessary to get a survey if you were deciding to build on your property. A building permit will not be issued without drawings that included the survey.
Not that's not correct. My place that I built had a building permit and no survey. I asked around and many people that I know built their home or cottage with no survey.
-
That is either a really nice or really lenient municipality. :)