Ontario Tax Sale Property Forum
Sheriff Sales / Foreclosures => General Discussion => Topic started by: Cader on December 18, 2014, 09:49:49 PM
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I'm new to this site but not new to investing in real estate. I recently came across an add in my local paper stating "NOTICE OF SHERIFF'S SALE OF LANDS" and was very intrigued. A new money maker perhaps? I actually found this forum in my search for more information on the idea. I did as much research on the property as I could but stopped short of hiring a lawyer. I wasn't willing to fork over hundreds of dollars on an idea that nobody new anything about and that even the Superior Court of Justice who was holding the auction was not willing to explain. I was informed that they were unable to provide me with any information that wasn't in the add; which was nothing more then the legal description of the property and the date that some unfortunate person would make a potentially disastrous financial investment. I found very little information was offered and became frustrated with the lack of transparency. After all this is a public institution holding the auction not a private auction house. Most importantly I didn't get how the process worked and what you were actually bidding on as even after you "won" the auction you were still responsible for paying all the debt associated with the property.
I finally got a hold of a court enforcement officer of the court who was willing to talk about it because he also informed me at that time that the auction had been canceled and no he would not tell me why. He said "I can't talk about something that is going to happen but will talk about something that won't happen." Is there a class that they take to sound mysterious and misleading?
When I asked what I was bidding on he stated that I was bidding on creditors equity. HUH, I'm not bidding on the property? He would only answer direct questions and that last one stumped me so I came up with an example: A $400,000 dollar house(I assume the total value is taken from the mpac assessed value) with $200,000 dollars of outstanding debts(good luck finding out what the debts are before bidding) and I win the auction with a $100,000 bid.
He said I would be on the hook for $300,000 total (the $100,000 bid PLUS all the debts/taxes/liens/encumbrances) but then he added he wouldn't let that go through anyway stating "I can't just give things away".
Am I missing something here? Is this the Russian Roulette of real estate? Is anybody who is willing to go to these things and make bids willing to buy my sandy beach front resort on Baffin Island? Is that snow or is that sand, its hard to tell on google maps? Don't ask questions just provide me with a blank check and everything will be OK. ;D
Any other experiences of someone who actually went to an sheriff auction or better yet someone who bought a property from the Casino?
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I have been watching with interest to see if anyone would, or could, respond to Cader's posting. I will respond in a couple of weeks if no one else wants to take a run at it. It has been a while since I actually bought something on a Sherriff's sale so it would be nice if someone more knowledgeable answered. In Ontatio you can buy from the government three different ways. Treasurer's tax sales are for novices, and unlikely to make you any money. Buying the assets of people who die with no will and no heirs is really for specialists dealing with the Ontario Public Trustee, although I bought a nice antique Mercedes this way. In my opinion, at the very, very, top are those gunslingers who really know their stuff, who can make a buck on Sherriff's sales. Happy hunting and happy trails in the New Year, and special thanks to Dave2, Frank , NetPred, and others who have helped a lot of you newbies with their unselfish plethora of information. 🐊
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I have been watching with interest to see if anyone would, or could, respond to Cader's posting. I will respond in a couple of weeks if no one else wants to take a run at it. It has been a while since I actually bought something on a Sherriff's sale so it would be nice if someone more knowledgeable answered. In Ontatio you can buy from the government three different ways. Treasurer's tax sales are for novices, and unlikely to make you any money. Buying the assets of people who die with no will and no heirs is really for specialists dealing with the Ontario Public Trustee, although I bought a nice antique Mercedes this way. In my opinion, at the very, very, top are those gunslingers who really know their stuff, who can make a buck on Sherriff's sales.
"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" is an old saying I believe in.
I know I am a novice in these matters, so I will stick to something I know about and let my more savy and knowledgeable brothers and sisters deal with the sheriff. Whether there is any money to be made depends what you sell them for and this being the time of the year I have to deal with my boss who keeps the books I will soon find out in a rather no nonsense way. >:(
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I think your statement that sheriff sales are the russian roulette of real estate is correct. I have watched a few of these auctions and done some due diligence on the properties involved, but never bought anything. Unlike tax sales, the mortgage stays after the sheriff's sale. From the sales I watched, I would guess that there were more than a few people who won a property not knowing that they were still responsible for the mortgage afterwards.
Also, unlike tax sales, the sheriff is supposed to get fair market value for the property, which is why the sheriff told you "I can't just give things away", so there is a limit on how good a deal you can expect.
There are a lot of pitfalls with these sales, so do a lot of reading on them before even thinking about bidding e.g., you may be only buying a half interest in the house.
Creditors really have to jump through a lot of hoops to get the sheriff to sell land, so you don't see too many of these sales anymore. Read the recent OCA decision in Royal Back v. Trang... it isn't getting better anytime soon.
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I have been watching with interest to see if anyone would, or could, respond to Cader's posting. I will respond in a couple of weeks if no one else wants to take a run at it. It has been a while since I actually bought something on a Sherriff's sale so it would be nice if someone more knowledgeable answered.
While we wait for G2020 to recover from the shock of seeing too many skimpy bikinis in the warmer climates. :o Here are details about a couple of upcoming Sherriff sales in the GTA.
As he said. "Treasurer's tax sales are for novices, and unlikely to make you any money."
Hopefully this will encourage him to help us finally make some money in this crazy business so I can keep my boss off my back. ;D My luck on tax sales has gone all to hell lately so I have to do something to justify my existance.
Maybe someone from Toronto will give us some details about these properties to save us country boys having to take a drive.
Feb 24th,2015 Sheriff Sale of 98 Upper Canada Drive,Toronto
Sheriff?s Sale of Lands
Ventes de terrains par le sh?rif
UNDER AND BY VIRTUE OF a Writ of Seizure and Sale issued out of
Ontario Superior Court of Justice, Toronto dated March 20, 2014, Court
File No. CV-13-480684, to me directed, against the real and personal property of MICHAEL CZERWINSKI, Defendant, at the suit of TORKIN MANES LLP, I have seized and taken in execution all the right, title, interest and equity of redemption of MICHAEL CZERWINSKI, Defendant in and to:
ALL AND SINGULAR, that certain parcel or tract of land and premises situated, being LT 10 PL 3563 NORTH YORK; TORONTO (N YORK),
CITY OF TORONTO, Known as 98 UPPER CANADA DRIVE, TORONTO, ONTARIO M2P 1S4.
ALL OF WHICH said right, title, interest and equity of redemption of MICHAEL CZERWINSKI, Defendant, in the said lands and tenements described above, I shall offer for sale by Public Auction subject to the conditions set out below at, 393 University Avenue, 19th Floor, Toronto, Ontario, on Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 11:00 a.m. (Registration 9:00 a.m.-10:30 a.m.)
CONDITIONS:
The purchaser to assume responsibility for all mortgages, charges, liens, outstanding taxes and other encumbrances. No representation is made regarding the title of the land or any other matter relating to the interest to be sold. Responsibility for ascertaining these matters rests with the potential purchaser(s).
TERMS: $2,000.00 certified cheque or cash upon bidder registration
Deposit 10% of bid price or $2,000.00, whichever is greater
Payable at time of sale by successful bidder
To be applied to purchase price
Non-refundable
Ten business days from date of sale to arrange financing and pay balance in full at 393 University Ave. 19th Floor, Toronto, Ontario
All payments in cash or by certified cheque made payable to the Sheriff of City of Toronto
Deed Poll provided by Sheriff only upon satisfactory payment in full of purchase price
Other conditions as announced
THIS SALE IS SUBJECT TO CANCELLATION BY THE SHERIFF WITHOUT FURTHER NOTICE UP TO THE TIME OF SALE.
Note: No employee of the Ministry of the Attorney General may purchase any goods or chattels, lands or tenements exposed for sale by a sheriff under legal process, either directly or indirectly.
Date: January 9, 2015
Joseph P. Van Tassel
Sheriff
393 University Avenue, 19th Floor
Toronto, Ontario M5G 1E6
416-327-5685
Feb 24,2015 Sheriff Sale of 757 Sheppard Av West # 3 Toronto
Sheriff?s Sale of Lands
Ventes de terrains par le sh?rif
UNDER AND BY VIRTUE OF a Writ of Seizure and Sale issued out of
Ontario Superior Court of Justice, Newmarket dated November 24, 2011,
Court File No. CV-09-097585-00, to me directed, against the real and
personal property of NOEMIE OZIEL, Defendant, at the suit of THE
TORONTO DOMINION BANK, I have seized and taken in execution all
the right, title, interest and equity of redemption of NOEMIE OZIEL,
Defendant in and to:
ALL AND SINGULAR, that certain parcel or tract of land and premises
situated, being PT LT 8 PL 1938 TWP OF YORK PT 15, 16, 21 & 22,
64R16113, S/T & T/W TR42674, S/T RIGHT IN TR42674; TORONTO
(N YORK), CITY OF TORONTO, Known as
757 SHEPPARD AVENUE WEST, UNIT 3, TORONTO, ONTARIO M3H 2S9.
ALL OF WHICH said right, title, interest and equity of redemption of
NOEMIE OZIEL, Defendant, in the said lands and tenements described
above, I shall offer for sale by Public Auction subject to the conditions set
out below at, 393 University Avenue, 19th Floor, Toronto, Ontario, on
Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 11:00 a.m. (Registration 9:00 a.m.-10:30 a.m.)
CONDITIONS:
The purchaser to assume responsibility for all mortgages, charges, liens,
outstanding taxes and other encumbrances. No representation is made
regarding the title of the land or any other matter relating to the interest
to be sold. Responsibility for ascertaining these matters rests with the
potential purchaser(s).
TERMS: $2,000.00 certified cheque or cash upon bidder registration
Deposit 10% of bid price or $2,000.00, whichever is greater
Payable at time of sale by successful bidder
To be applied to purchase price
Non-refundable
Ten business days from date of sale to arrange financing and
pay balance in full at 393 University Ave. 19th Floor, Toronto, Ontario
All payments in cash or by certified cheque made payable to
the Sheriff of City of Toronto
Deed Poll provided by Sheriff only upon satisfactory payment in full of purchase price
Other conditions as announced
THIS SALE IS SUBJECT TO CANCELLATION BY THE SHERIFF
WITHOUT FURTHER NOTICE UP TO THE TIME OF SALE.
Note: No employee of the Ministry of the Attorney General may purchase
any goods or chattels, lands or tenements exposed for sale by a sheriff
under legal process, either directly or indirectly.
Date: January 9, 2015
Joseph P. Van Tassel
Sheriff
393 University Avenue, 19th Floor
Toronto, Ontario M5G 1E6
416-327-5685
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In my opinion, at the very, very, top are those gunslingers who really know their stuff, who can make a buck on Sherriff's sales. Happy hunting and happy trails in the New Year, and special thanks to Dave2, Frank , NetPred, and others who have helped a lot of you newbies with their unselfish plethora of information.
Further to earlier post here is a photo of 98 Upper Canada Drive. It even backs onto a park and I wonder if that is a Porsche 911 in the driveway.
http://www.zolo.ca/toronto-real-estate/98-upper-canada-drive
757 Sheppard Avenue looks like a brand new low rise condo building
http://www.zolo.ca/toronto-real-estate/757-sheppard--w-avenue
Total market value for both combined will exceed 7 figures. ;D
Both are close to 401 and within walking distance of a subway station . Good schools in the area as my kids went to them many years ago.
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Good sleuthing Dave2, but for a Sheriff's sale you need to be more accurate. The Sherriff will usually let you see the professional appraisals that he/she will have commissioned for each property, and those appraisals will have pictures of both the inside and the outside of the property. If the appraisals are not within 10% of each other then the Sherriff may ask the appraisers to select a third appraiser, and turn over all their comparison data to the individual performing the appraisal. Oh, and Dave the car in the driveway is indeed a Porsche. Not a 911, but it is a Porshe Boxster - good observation.
When I wrote my brief posting a couple of weeks ago I got lots of response from the private message board, that in essence said to forget it because the topic had been beaten to death in the past. All of those responses are available if one was to do a search. I do not know how. The message to me that I liked the most said that trying to get something on a Sherriff's sale was like trying to catch smoke with a net.
Nevertheless I cannot help repeating three key things so that at least you will exercise caution as follows:
Firstly, the margins are even thinner than on tax sales, but the properties tend to be very valuable, so you must always ignore the assessed values that most of you use for tax sales, and rely solely on the appraisals in the Sherriff's possession;
Secondly, try not to bid, since once the bidding stops the Sherriff will recognize the high bidder, and then conference with the creditor - now is the time to make your move and deal directly with the creditor, otherwise the Sherriff will reopen the bidding since he wants to get the appraised value if the creditor will not agree to take less; and
Thirdly, and most importantly, you need a plan for what you are going to do if you get the property, and the legal cost involved in partitioning, since your searches will have probably uncovered that the creditor has a judgement against only one of the owners and your deed pole will not be sufficient to easily get possession against the spouse or other owner who now has ownership in common with you, but has possession.
These tend to be very good properties, unlike the tax sale low-end lots and slums that dominate the tax sale listings. It is a very different game, but one that we all have to consider if tax sales continue to be redeemed on the day of the sale, or after the sale.
Fourty some years ago I would pick up the Ontario Gazette each Friday night after work and read the new tax sale and Sherriff's sale listings. At that time most Counties had one combined tax sale, and the rules with respect to redemptions was clear. The Act defined exactly what type of government interest a tax deed was subject to. Today's tax deeds are subject to an as yet undefined government interest. I now would much rather have a deed pole from the Sherriff than a tax deed which is unclear as to what you get. Now we have a proliferation of tax sales with more and more municipalities having their own sale, whereas the Sherriff's sales remain at the county level and you can soon build a working relationship with your local Sherriff.
You gun slingers can run all over the Province chasing tax sales that get redeemed after the sale if they are any good, or you can buy a part interest in a grand home that has the mortgages already in place, and make a good buck if you can stomach executing your exit plan.
Quite frankly I cannot picture Dave2 arriving home after a hard days work of buying Sherriff sale properties and telling his wife that he has just bought a grand home that he now owns in common with another woman. Oh, and that woman currently lives there, has no intention of leaving because after all she is an owner and may not feel comfortable giving Dave2 a key, yet! 🐊
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G2020:
Your post is so good and packed with some much information I nominate it for post of the Year. I tried to give you two thumbs up but Rob wan't let me without an hour time delay.
I debated responding to it but the post would have to be so long that I would have to break it into 2 or even 3 posts.
Its one you have to read carefully because it is packed with so much good stuff.
To summarize if you are hunting elephants you need an elephant gun and you have provided those who want to play with the strategy and the means.
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I'm curious how you go about finding out how much is owed on the mortgage on a sheriff's sale. Title search only tells you the amount of the mortgage that was registered. The sheriffs never want to provide a mortgage discharge statement. Without it, how do you know what you are buying?
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"Jt" raises an interesting question about the outstanding balance on the mortgages. You have neither the time, nor the authority, to request a mortgage statement from the lenders. The sheriff will usually have mortgage statements that set out the amount owing for discharge purposes. If not, ask him/her to point out the creditor who initiated the sale. The creditor will have mortgage statements. A Sherriff's sale is more like a power of sale proceeding since the creditor needs statements from all higher ranking creditors, including a property tax arrears statemt from the municipality. You need these, and the municipality and mortgagees cannot give out this information to anyone other than a person who can show a legal interest in the property. In a tax sale the treasurer is authorized by statute to disclose the tax arrears situation, but normally there is a fee for this information, and you must be an owner or creditor. Likewise there is a fee for providing a mortgage statement for discharge purposes, and as a mortgagee I would normally charge between $100 and $500 depending upon what clauses I had negotiated into the mortgage.
I hope this helps.🐊
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Quite frankly I cannot picture Dave2 arriving home after a hard days work of buying Sherriff sale properties and telling his wife that he has just bought a grand home that he now owns in common with another woman.
Oh, and that woman currently lives there, --------- may not feel comfortable giving Dave2 a key, yet!
G2020:
Depending on the particulars of the case may or may not want to tell the wife. Unlike more sophiscated gunslingers had a very conventional and conservative existence so far and like a famous golfer found out ladies from my wife's part of the world can be ruthless on husbands who have mistresses.
As you said earlier " Treasurer's tax sales are for novices, and unlikely to make you any money."
By sticking to tax sales that automatically rules me out for those type of ladies because the first thing they assess is the size of your wallet.
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An Ontario Court of Appeal case was mentioned by Jt. It is a must read for anyone interested in Sherriffs sales. As a non-lawyer I found it a really good read, with a surprise ending. You will notice that the Sherriff refused to sell the property unless the creditor obtained a mortgage statement setting out the mortgage amount that would be assumed by the Sherriff's sale purchaser. That is the position that all Sherriffs should take, or you should not attend their sales. They now have no excuse. To read the case go to canlii.org and enter "Royal Bank of Canada v. Trang" and select the 2014 ruling. Again I stress that you should not go to Sherriffs sales until you have purchased a lot of tax sale junk and are ready to graduate to the big leagues.🐊
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Dear All,
I am a representative of the creditor who initiated the Sheriff's Sale of the property, 98 Upper Canada Drive, North York (the "Property").
As we have invested a considerable sum in trying to sell the Property, we have been diligent in obtaining all of the necessary paperwork to ensure that the Property is sold on the date of the auction.
This is an excellent property in an affluent neighborhood. As such, any prospective purchasers should be willing to spend a considerable amount of money. It is my understanding that the Sheriff will not sell the Property if the offering price is not reasonable.
Regards,
Creditor's Rep.
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It is nice to get Sherriff's sale information direct from a creditor. Bravo! This confirms that at these sales one can get a quality property at a fair price, lower risk, and full disclosure. Dave2 is a double or nothing type of guy who is well suited to tax sales - high risk and a chance to double or triple your money. However on a tax sale you could easily lose everything, which is why the experienced players always advise not to buy on a tax sale using borrowed money. Hopefully this discussion is helping everyone appreciate the different opportunity offered by Sherriff sales. Not better, not worse, just a different risk/reward scenario.🐊
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It is nice to get Sherriff's sale information direct from a creditor. Bravo! This confirms that at these sales one can get a quality property at a fair price, lower risk, and full disclosure.
Hopefully this discussion is helping everyone appreciate the different opportunity offered by Sherriff sales. Not better, not worse, just a different risk/reward scenario.
The key issue here maybe the lowered redemption risk. Quality tax sale properties have suffered from a plague of redemptions lately and hopefully this will not happen with Sherrif Sales
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curious if anyone went to the Toronto sheriff's sale and, if so, what 98 Upper Canada sold for?