Ontario Tax Sale Property Forum
Tax Sale Forum => General => Topic started by: Prospector on December 08, 2006, 02:58:14 PM
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Who do you have do a title search?
A number of places advise having a lawyer do it, but since they just hire a searcher, why not skip the upcharge, and hire a title searcher yourself?
I once did a title search on my own, and found the staff at the land transfer office in Brantford very helpful. I just wonder if a searcher or lawyer will unearth more info than you would doing it on your own. The downside of doing the search on my own was that I raised the attention of another person who was in the office, and found that the deal of a property I had stumbled across was scooped out from under me by the guy who had hovered while the searcher was giving me a hand.
While I am on this tack - are there preferred searchers who are more thorough than others, or some that are really bad to beware of?
Finally - This is getting to be a lot of questions for one post - do you buy title insurance on the properties you win, and is it even availabnle on tax properties?
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My Motto is : Trust no-one
Although there are lots of good lawyers and title searchers out there, don't believe for a second that they don't know a good deal when they see one, nor that they haven't got their ear to the pavement. When you pay them to do your search what is the likelyhood that they might turn around and have there cousin Dave put in a bid.
I do my own, and I try to be as discreet as possible when doing it. Your right the guy that is looking over your shoulder is the one to watch. Just try not to breath a word about what you might be bidding while you are doing it.
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I'm sure many members what to know how do you do your own title search Frank. Do you go down to each municipality and search manually? Are you a member of an organization that can perform electronic searches?
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I'm sure we've already had this discussion. You can only do it electronically if you have access to e-reg - I'm not sure whether that system gives you enough information however. For example, I don't believe you have access to surveys on that system and therefore it would be hard (in some cases) to determine exactly what the configuration of the property is. Also, unless you are running a legal office and have need for such a system on a daily basis I don't believe you would be investing your money wisely.
I go directly to the registry office and do a full search. If you don't know how to do it, you would be best to hire a 'free-lance' title searcher to do it for you. These guys hang out at the registry office waiting for lawyers offices to call and give them work. Get what information you can from them about the property, but don't give them information you have already obtained from other sources, or any clue as to how much you think it might be worth.
The amount you are going to bid is a very personal matter, and you should keep it to yourself - or be prepared to lose on every bid you make.
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I think the cost of becoming a e-reg member is 700+ plus for a year. Plus the cost of each search. I didn't realize you do not get access to property surveys through that system. That's interesting.
Is anyone on these forums a member?
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http://www.ppsa.ca/ppsaca/
You can do a Land Title Search across Canada (any province) for $60. According to their web page you have to complete a request form.
Somebody suggested me to do the Name Search too. On the Title Search you find two or more owners.
I gave you an example. For 15 acres land in Brant. I did following:
- land title search $8
- name search for 2 persons $22
On the title search said few things about the owner, which I suspected was dead (born 1921). There were listed 3 persons as owners. I took the print out of the documents listed on title search for which I paid extra $10 (the charge is 50 cents/page). I could examinee those documents without paying. I didn’t see very well the writing in each page and it was my choice to take a print out.
Two days before tax sales, I called the office to check if the property is still available. The irony is that the tax sale was cancelled.
Is necessary to do the Name Search?
What is the connection between Name Search and Land Title Search?
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This may seem a little strange, but what the heck...
To me the case for the internet/electronic searches is not for thouroghness so much as discretion. One guy types in a PIN#, gets a report andsends it to you, rather than an office where anyone could be lurking. I am still not convinced that the internet knows as much as "Larry"behind the counter though, especially if Larry has answered a bunch of questions just like yours and understands what you need to know.
On the other hand, if you really want to fly in under the radar, why not order the electronic title search, and then go to the Engineering dept. of the town or county.
Engineering is usually not concerned so much with property sales and isn't overrun with lawyers etc. In the eng. dept you could ask for property location, service hookups, fieldbed locations (for adjacent properties as well), and access controls. Then if you went to the planning department you could ask for buiding restricvtions and zoning and an attendant map showing surrounding parcels and structures, and you could do all this under the guise of being a good neighbour.
It seems to me that thisis all information you will need sooner or later anyway, and that if you tied it in early on you could get the survey and other info well before worrying about any info getting out about the property.
Thoughts?
Again, I have never bid in one of these sales and am just trying to feel my way around before getting into anything. (The one I lost was a power of sale property I had found through a friend who was familiar with the sale going on)
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In the case of title searches Frank is right, being discreet is always key. However, most lien/title search office are local to the property in question and I have found that most of the clerks in the office are already aware of the tax sale property, these clerks can be quite helpfull usually have some info about the property. That is the one problem with tax sale properties in cottage country, they are not kept secert for a while and in some cases it is standing room only when the envelopes are opened on auction day. Usually the egineering/building planning dept all work out of the same office, maybe even sit next to each other. I
My best advice is to wait as close to the tax sale day as possible before driving in to inspect the property and before doing the title searches, that way, if the sale is cancelled, you did'nt waste your time/money.
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The people in the registry offices are, for the most part, helpful. If you want to learn to do them on your own, it might pay to hire a free-lance title searcher to teach you. I don't see the necessity to do name searches but crown leins should be done. Title & Crown lein searches should be done on the morning of the sale, after you've called to check cancellations. If it's an early opening, do them the afternoon before.
Surveys are sometimes attached to old deeds, but belong to the surveyor and to the person who paid for the work. I believe that even if you buy a property where a survey was done some time before, you have no right to a copy of the survey (from the surveyor). You can copy the survey in the reg off., if its on file. Remember, when searching in the reg off, there is a stiff penalty for taking documents with you. It's called stealing. On the matter of losing a gem of a property to an over-the-shoulder-peeper, they may have been looking all over the reg off for the docs you have, so you really lost the property to someone who wanted it more than you did (bid higher). When tendering, or even when making an offer to purchase real estate, I figure out just exactly what I need to pay for the property to make it worth my while, that's my price, and that's what I offer. If someone pays more or wants more, that's life, but don't go there to lose. On tax sales by tender, especially, you only have the one chance.
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Won my first one. made some money, but didn't do enough research and could have made another 6-7000 profit.
Won my second, only to have it redeemed the next morning at 8:31 am.
Lost my third because I cut back on my intended bid amount due to some one removing the road sign and I couldn't find the property. Would have won at my original amount.
Lost my fourth, again because of sloppy research as to value. At one point I had it right, then gave weight to an "expert"s opinion and cut back on my original intended bid amount, which would have won.
Lost my fifth because I was unsure of property location, so, AGAIN, cut back on my original intended bid amount, which would have won.
Lost my sixth because I forgot to take something important into consideration, so actually underbid.
Won my seventh by paying too much, but will improve the property and at least break even.
Lost my eighth because of forgetting to have snow tires mounted, then found my bid would have come in as # 67 (exageration), so actually won: no travel, no time lost, no searches to pay for. Karma!
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Hey, there is nothing to say that you even have to do a search of the property to put in a bid, but you are taking a big chance.
The reason you also want to do a name search at the Sherrif's office is to ensure that there are no crown liens that are are there by writ of execution against the individual - and 'all of their assets'. They will sometimes do this to cover all of their basis, and you lose.
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I just spoke with my family lawyer who told me that while this process is not a problem for him to process, his fees are quite high for tax sales. He quoted me over $200 for the title search alone, then advised that once the sale is complete additional fees to register the deed etc. would be quite high compared to teh amount we are used to seeing through a traditional sale/purchase.
According to him, being careful that every detail was in place when buying these properties is very important/detailed and that it took longer than a normal sale under a much tighter schedule.
Any replies to that? I thought it was simply a matter of ensuring the liens are cleared, then registering the deed. Its not like we will have a mortgage to transfer or anything.
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I just spoke with my family lawyer who told me that while this process is not a problem for him to process, his fees are quite high for tax sales. He quoted me over $200 for the title search alone, then advised that once the sale is complete additional fees to register the deed etc. would be quite high compared to teh amount we are used to seeing through a traditional sale/purchase.
My advice is, get a new lawyer - real quick. Firstly, you can do a search for a lot less than that. Secondly, you do not need a lawyer to close on a tax sale property - the municipality takes care of everything. You get a tax deed that is free and clear (of everything except crown liens - which you knew about to begin with). I've bought three properties on tax sales and haven't spent a nickle on a lawyer to close on any of them.
This guy is trying to rip you off big-time.
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Thanks Frank - Thats pretty much the feel of what I got from him as well.
I think its getting close to time to get into this game, but I am still researching.
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Good day Gentlemen,
As you can see by my rank, I am new to these forms. However I have been reading some of the discussions held here, and I would like to say that many of the postings I have had an opportunity to read- have impressed, and educated me.
I am new to the game of acquiring tax properties and am mostly interested in taking baby steps for now, and perhaps sharing my minimal experiences for those who have interest.
So as my début here on this site, I would like to say Hello.
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Welcome to the gang JohhnySweet.
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Hello everyone,
While back there was a 50 acer property in oro-medonte and when i did the title search found out that it had registered mortgage in the amount of $1.4 million by a receivership comany the property was sold for $151000 and out of curiosity i checked the title search after about three week and noticed that it had new owner's name with 151000 but the registered mortgage of $1.4 million and also the charge of city taxes were still showing up in the search they were not discharged my understanding was that city should give you the new deed clear of all the charges except for crown liens.
If any one can tell if this is possible where they stay on title after the sale.
Thanks
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The charge for $1.4 is of no effect, and the new owner should be going after the Municipality and the Registry office to have it removed - could be in the works.
Why would you bother to double check it unless you were the buyer.
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Frank thanks for the response I am not the buyer but new to this business and wanted to make sure that this is how its working but looks like some thing is not working properly will double check with the municipality.
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I have access to title searches on the internet through Geowarehouse. This also provides maps and sales history on neigbouring properties. (I.e. how much comparable properties sold for).