Ontario Tax Sale Property Forum
Tax Sale Forum => General => Topic started by: sam123 on October 26, 2011, 03:38:03 AM
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I've been following taxsaleproperty.org for years....learning by absorbing what you gents have to say, but I've never seen a reference to "SUBJECT TO EXECUTION 92-009999, IF ENFORCEABLE". I made up the numbers for the example, but what is it referring to? Is it a lien? If so, why would a city/township bother posting it?
Thanks
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Although someone like netpred or Dave2 can probably give a more detailed explanation, this is what I have observed. When property was moved from Land Registry to the new automated Land Titles system the owners of the parcels being transferred were checked to see if there were executions (claims or judgements) registered against them. To register a deed in the old land registry system you were not required to check for executions, that is do a search with the sheriffs office for judgements, when you registered a deed - you just registered what ever you wished, the registrar did not care since they were not certifying (guaranteeing) the title. Under the new system all property, not just that in northern Ontario, and new subdivisions as in the past, became certified by the land register because all parcels of land in Ontario are now in the Land Titles. Those of us who were not lawyers just registered whatever we liked. At one time we used to receive two copies of our tax deeds in the mail - we would then register them the next time we were in that area, or attach an affidavit and stick them in the mail for registration. Nobody checked executions back then - we were young and knew everything. The properties that were moved to Land Titles became known as qualified land titles and part of their new description includes executions that were discovered when the parcels were transferred. When you see these "subject to executions 9999999 if enforceable" all you are reading is the legal description that the municipality has copied from the descriptor at the top of the parcel register. When you search these executions you may find nothing since they have expired, they may not be the type of execution that a tax deed is subject to and thus your lawyer may remove them, or they could represent interests of the crown in which case your tax deed may be a piece of sh@;.
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g2020:
It appears that your analysis is as always, quite excellent. I, a relative newbie and amateur, have certainly learned a thing or two from long timers such as you. I only wish that you and others like you, would be more active with your insights. That way people wouldn't have to listen to big mouths like me who think that they know it all.
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I recently won a tax sale and the description of the property ALSO includes the text "SUBJECT TO EXECUTION 99-99999, IF ENFORCEABLE" - but with a real lien number. It turned out the the lien was from Ontario Legal Aid which is not a crown corporation so it doesn't transfer. However, in processing the land transfer form, the treasurer at the municipality is keeping it on the description. I called him to ask why he's looking for me to sign for a description that is not accurate, and he said that is between me and the registry office. The lien is in the description that exists now, and so he says he needs to keep it intact to transfer.
I phoned the registry office and they said they couldn't comment. They asked what my barrister suggested and when I said I was just looking for the description to accurately reflect the property, they said property descriptions are updated by registry officers upon processing.
I have to figure that since the township hired Realtax Inc to process this stuff, they can do this in a knit. I have the feeling that once things get set, they are hard to get corrected and cost lawyer money...which just seems unneccesary for this.
Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks
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I recently won a tax sale and the description of the property ALSO includes the text "SUBJECT TO EXECUTION 99-99999, IF ENFORCEABLE"
However, in processing the land transfer form, the treasurer at the municipality is keeping it on the description. I called him to ask why he's looking for me to sign for a description that is not accurate, and he said that is between me and the registry office. The lien is in the description that exists now, and so he says he needs to keep it intact to transfer. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks
Sam:
A few general observations:
a) The land titles system appears to have been done more sloppily done then I would have hoped for as I believe that there is some historic garbage that was transferred without being cleaned up for all properties including tax sales. Fortunately a tax sale cancels most liens except government liens. Be thankful you don't have a regular purchase and sale.
a) While the tax sale cancels this lien from title the municipality is under no obligation
to remove it from the title. I have a headache now with another tax sale property I purchased unrelated to yours now on a similar case that I have sold and the purchasers lawyer has refused to clear it because of an historic lien 50 year old from a company that is defunct and deregistered.
Fortunately at the time of the tax sale purchase I got a declaration from the local sherriff that there were no current active liens against the property.
b) A few suggestions: 1) We are doing a solution with my lawyer that we believe will apply to several thousand properties alone in my local county. (Northumberland)
My lawyer will be in touch with the local bar to explain what we are doing and I am going to brief the local real estate agents.
There is a lot of potential liability with this so I am not prepared to share the exact details publically because I am not certain if my problem is exactly the same as yours from a legal perspective. .
2) Get your local sherif declaration and hold onto it. You may need it when you sell the property.
3) Fix it now don't wait until you sell the property. In my case it will take 2 months to close; fortunately I have a seller who really wants this property and is willing to wait. We also did not need any outside financing.
4) For anyone selling property whether purchased by tax sale or otherwise; make sure these are stripped from title.
5) Finally I am going to ask a question to OTS Jeff. Any chance Realtax could clean up cases like this when title is transferred. Sam and OTS Jeff I have no problem in talking some particulars via PM.
Dave2
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Excellent post and very good responses indeed!.
Being a regular customer of OTS, I would like to hear their official opinion here and Looking forward to it..
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This is an excellent topic, and I'm glad that the issue was raised.
The official word from OTS is on the Frequently Asked Questions page of our website. Here's a link to that page:
ontariotaxsales.ca/nc/how-to-buy-tax-sale-properties/frequently-asked-questions.html#irfaq_13_fbdaa
ontariotaxsales.ca/nc/how-to-buy-tax-sale-properties/frequently-asked-questions.html#irfaq_13_fbdaa
When you get to that page, please click on Subject to Executions if Enforceable"...
Best regards,
Jeff Oberman
President
OntarioTaxSales.ca
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Fortunately, I'm an OTS member and I did purchase the OTS title search. As I mentioned above, the registry office would barely speak to me. Although an incident like this may be rare, to me, the support from OTS on this issue is a huge value.
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I have the similar situation for a Tax sale. It is not an execution but actually a mortgage. When the title is being transferred the existing mortgage (charge) is not removed by the Municipality lawyer. I am wondering now how do I get it removed from the title.
Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.
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I am totally with you netpred ;D
How'bout 50% off coupon for the 'northern' title searches??(my christmas dream!) :D
any more suggestions? I have got time to read them all as I am on my holidays too 8)
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I have the similar situation for a Tax sale. It is not an execution but actually a mortgage. When the title is being transferred the existing mortgage (charge) is not removed by the Municipality lawyer. I am wondering now how do I get it removed from the title.
Unfortunately I stopped believing in Santa Claus some time ago (probably get at least 10 black marks) so I will return to original topic.
I was cautious in an earlier response because of a personal experience that resulted in me wondering if registry offices all followed the same practices. Any one got any experience / opinion.
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I am told by the municipality that the mortgages will be removed automatically in a week or two when the Tax Deeds will be certified by the Land Registry. Is it true ? Anyone has any experience ?
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You can keep asking the same question hoping for a different answer. Maybe someone will tell you what you want to hear, but the fact is if you want to delete a mortgage you must amend the register. Mortgages are not deleted automatically.
Perhaps the Shah doesn't want the old mortgage removed at all....why not pay off someone else's debt, if you can afford to. If it were me, I'd have my lawyer file an application to amend the register...as has been recommended here a number of times. There is nothing that requires the Treasurer to do this, so it is up to the purchaser to follow-up...as the sign on the bathroom wall reads...'The job ain't over till the paper-work is done'. 8)
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Thanks very much guys your help is very much appreciated. This forum is great resource of information for newbies like me.
I was going to talk to my lawyer as first suggested by netpred but the Municipal Account Manager who took care of the entire tax sale process gave me the above statement. It was hard to believe for me too. I will certainly talk to my lawyer for the application to remove the instruments from the title. No Frank, I can't afford to pay someone else mortgage! ???
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Despite all the negative postings I see about OTS (but not from a wide variety of readers), I am completely satisfied with their service. In fact, I'd highly recommend it. For the property I bought, OTS had it listed 3 weeks before this site. That's a huge window of time if you are going to go and see the site in person....and all the TSP regulars say every bidder should be personally visiting their prospective bidding properties. This site is great, and as a member, you get way more than you pay for, but if someone is going to look at tax sales at all seriously, you are best off with having a full time team of people doing some leg work for you. The Ontario Tax Sales business is a tiny investment for the people with an interest in buying a tax sale property.
Back to the subject at hand:
Earlier in this string, "OTS Jeff" identified their policy (and support) on the issue of "SUBJECT TO EXECUTION...". Sure enough, here I am three weeks later, with a copy of the abstract showing that all the liens and executions were removed by the registry office. This was all because of a followup by OTS...and it's part and parcel to their commitment to help members get nits like this cleared up. On the other hand, my first thought was that I was going to have to get this fixed myself.....and that only meant lawyer time. I suspect that if it went easy, it would have been $200 of lawyer cost. How much is the relief of a clean property description worth?
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Well, I just logged onto OTS to see how many "free" packages are available. NONE! OTS is providing half the service that it used to.
Is OTS useful for others? Perhaps. But I have not been receiving any value for my money :(.
Netpred:
You are complaining about the wrong thing. The problem is our wimpish politicians who are not protectors of our public purse because they don't don't go after deadbeats. Don't believe me; Let me show you how the underlying problem is costing you and OTS Jeff both a lot of money and has nothing to do with the components of his website.
Because of your concerns; I will give a couple of examples courtesy of our hard working administrator Rob. (After this post I think you will agree Rob deserves a designated driver plus as many free beers as he can handle.)
Courtesy of Rob; go to the main website and click on the Ontario tax sales section on this website (not Jeff's website) which Rob has listed all of them since 2004. He has also classified them by county or district and municipality.
LETS USE THAT INFORMATION TO IDENTIFY THE ONES THAT ARE COSTING YOU (ME, AND ALL OF US) AND JEFF POTENTIALLY A LOT OF MONEY.
For example in the last 7 years all of the County of Wentworth has not had a tax sale. :o (This is a special case and I will return to it in a minute). Gee I wonder if there are any other counties or municipalities that have not had a tax sale?
Lets go one level lower and I will focus on my home county of Northumberland as an example. The following municipalities are resident in the county;
Township of Alnwick/Haldimand
Municipality of Brighton
Town of Cobourg
Township of Cramahe
Township of Hamilton
Municipality of Port Hope
Municipality of Trent Hills
When you look at who has had tax sales and the difference in the number over the seven years it is shocking. We have had two: Port Hope and Hamilton (Rob has confused the City of Hamilton and the Township of Hamilton) with no tax sales.
The top one has had 22 over the same time period.
The town of Port Hope which includes Hope township was founded in 1850. What if they have never had a tax sale???? Think of the potential backlog.
One final number; according to the govenment of Ontario there are 444 municipalities in the province. I wonder how many municipalities had tax sales in the last 7 years?
Netpred your turn to count. My objective is to get you the biggest boat you ever saw covered with accessories as my wife calls them with the skimpiest bikinis you ever saw.
Bottom line is I ain't going to complain about website layout; I have bigger game to hunt. I will throw this open to the wolf pack for ideas how we can get the deadbeat muncipalities on line.
Merry Xmas. We have some interesting work in the new year.
Dave2
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Some time ago I did some research about why some municipalities had more tax sales then others. I set the results aside until I had time to do more research. The budget impact on the municipality is interesting. Lets look at one specific case. The Township of Hamilton in Northumberland County.
This information is taken from the Township minutes which are available here.
http://www.hamiltontownship.ca/UserFiles/files/MINUTES%20BUDGET%20MTG%20No%203%20MARCH%2014%202012.pdf
From Item 4. Presentation of Final Budget:
2.66% levy increase over the 2011 budget
Current programs and services remain at existing levels
Currently Hamilton Township has no debt
(in the form of debentures or external loans ? Internal loan to Water Department)
Assessment/taxes discussions:
Commercial assessment down while residential assessment is up.
406 properties in arrears (3+years)
Work with property owners to develop plan of repayment. Encourage monthly plan. Currently 900+ tax accounts out of 5000 using monthly plan.
Avoid tax sale if possible.
8% of all taxpayers in the township are over 3 years arrears.
Where are TriTarget and OTS Jeff????
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Is there a law that says a municipality cannot work with a property owner to clear up back taxes, or is it mandatory to throw them out on the street? I, for one, find it encouraging that a municipality can operate with a low levy, within their budget, and still be able to keep its citizenry in their homes. Losing your home is a large heartache: I met a man, many years ago, who was a brilliant engineer, with many patents to his name, who lived in a ramshackle house that, while dry, was kept up poorly. He had pending bigbucks contracts piled up on his desk alongside municipal letters with "URGENT" in red on the envelope, yet he could only focus on writing, in pencil, long well-thought-out letters to federal and provincial politicians, pointing out the errors of their ways. He read a couple of them to me, and, while they were each an amazing analysis of the political stupidity of their manner of governance, his actions were of no help to either him or his wife: they were evicted and the property went for one sort of sale or another. He was, at this time, in his late 70s, and they had lived there for decades.
I would like to live in a municipality that had low tax rates, yet worked with their taxpayers to keep them in their homes. Taxpayers in their homes spend money on heat, light, food, clothing, etc. Taxpayers evicted from their homes are put in assisted housing, and get money from various sources. Which do you prefer?
Earlier, Dave2 said: the County of Wentworth has not had a tax sale; this is a special case and I will return to it in a minute. I'd be interested in hearing that story.
Cheers to all.
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8% of all taxpayers in the township are over 3 years arrears.
That means that everyone is paying 8% more tax to keep the town running..No debt means that the people are paying . I dont know about you but I would be pissed paying 8% more so a bunch of aholes can freeload...additionally think of all the services , parks etc that they do without so the scum can freeload
Send notices ..put the houses up for sale and I can assure you all of the 8% we pay immediately ..
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I would like to live in a municipality that had low tax rates, yet worked with their taxpayers to keep them in their homes. Taxpayers in their homes spend money on heat, light, food, clothing, etc. Taxpayers evicted from their homes are put in assisted housing, and get money from various sources. Which do you prefer?
Earlier, Dave2 said: the County of Wentworth has not had a tax sale; this is a special case and I will return to it in a minute. I'd be interested in hearing that story. Cheers to all.
Ernest Bidder:
You can't have it both ways. In the case of Hamilton township I would characterize residential tax rates as high. I am all for compassion but there are limits. Let me know when you are next in the area (I will even treat you with one of Netpreds beers) and I will show you some properties where the property taxes have not been paid for 40 years.
Regarding Wentworth County it is a simple answer. The citizens of Hamilton (the city)decided they needed some local class because the classiest guy 8) in the city left their employ so they absorbed the rest of the county. They needed high class places Like Ancaster and Dundas to replace him.
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Over two years ago I posted a response to Netpred who was complaining about lack of tax sales. I used the example of my local county and specifically mentioned Port Hope that had not had a tax sale in many years. (My post 269)
Recently OTS posted the following:
http://www.ontariotaxsales.ca/nc/upcoming-tax-sales/municipality/TSuid/1074/pBack/67/stype/featured/muid/358.html
My post was December 24, 2011.
Was doing some related title search work today and look what happened.
Registered as ND72052 on 2012 01 31 at 14:44 by a company called RealTax
which is part of OTS.
Extracting.
Schedule: Tax Arrears Certificate, Municipal Act, 2001
On January 31, 2012,
Amazing those coincidences
I conclude with my last remark of two years ago.
Bottom line is I ain't going to complain about website layout; I have bigger game to hunt. I will throw this open to the wolf pack for ideas how we can get the deadbeat muncipalities on line.