Ontario Tax Sale Property Forum
Tax Sale Forum => General => Topic started by: Dave2 on December 05, 2013, 03:40:21 PM
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Still interest in waterfront properties.
Winning bidder $155,000
2nd bidder $116,000
total 16 bidders
anyone care to comment if this is a good or idiotic bid.
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It's hard to say what the market value for this one might be, as it's water access to Georgian Bay has been affected by the low water levels. I came in third, with a bid of $105,020.00.
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Im still new to this, but would the mortgage still stay on after the tax sale? From what I found, the mortgage was higher than the minimum bid.
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Im still new to this, but would the mortgage still stay on after the tax sale? From what I found, the mortgage was higher than the minimum bid.
Mike,
In Ontario, the mortgage will only survive a tax sale if the mortgage company is a Crown corporation, for example the Business Development Bank, The Minister of Finance, Farm Credit Canada, etc. This means Provincial and Federal Interests.
If the mortgage company is not a Crown corporation the mortgage will be eliminated by a tax sale upon successful registration of the deed/transfer.
If you require more information on this just send us an email @ info@tri-target.com, we're here to help!
Kindest Regards,
Jay Trickey
Tri-Target.com
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It's hard to say what the market value for this one might be, as it's water access to Georgian Bay has been affected by the low water levels. I came in third, with a bid of $105,020.00.
This was one of my concerns so decided not to get serious on this one. (Plus I was distracted by another far bigger one recently. How is that for a hint>) Trying a get a serious reading on water conditions at this time of year is suicidal.
Of course having a water access only tax sale like Island J is even worse. Why can't they wait until reasonable boating weather. Guess if I want to bid it I will have to rely on one of my tennants from Dave's folly. (see photo)
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Being a long time cottager in the area, and owning property near there. (Only made it out there at dusk, and couldn't stay long.) I'll risk an opinion.
Its road access, big plus.
It is quasi waterfront, with matching zoning, a plus
Current water levels only allow a canoe, kayak or john boat through the culvert, a negative.
There is a upscale boat launch not to far away, a plus.
On going annual road development charge from township for reserve by-pass, a negative.
The route from the Hwy 559 cutoff on Hwy 400 is 28 kilometers of winding road, a negative.
Nearest retail store, Parry Sound. There maybe a seasonal variety store in the community, but its not on the road in.
The build dates back to just around the same time that the OBC was brought in. This could be a disaster, as many of the contractors of the area were pretty questionable for best practices, a negative.
Siding looks to be original and untreated, windows are mostly original and seasonal quality, negatives
Getting pretty dark at this point, the dreaded interior joists becoming exterior joists for deck support. Disastrous rot may result from this economical design, negative.
Current assessment and tax rate will push the taxes up there for what you're getting, a negative.
Has a built in garage, done with permits, a positive.
Looks to have been rented for awhile, so interior condition is suspect, a negative.
No record of a drilled well, and likewise for most neighbouring parcels, means high probability of a dug well or lake intake, a negative.
Block foundation looks to be in good shape, which is something for that area, a positive.
Marginal driveway, a negative.
Buried electrical feed, positive.
Just shy of 2 acres, positive.
Building has southern exposure, a positive.
Georgian Bay is just right there, a positive.
Not a lot of crown land in the area, for day tripping, a negative.
Some of the property has been cleared, while the western portion, towards the main road is forested, positive.
The grade of the property isn't to steep, but sufficient for drainage.
Maybe issues with up-slope drainage, a negative.
Building removed from main road, a positive.
Newer septic system, a big plus.
You have just driven 3+ hours from Toronto, I found the drive, with packed snow and ice a little stressful. In the winter the road is known for being closed by weather and downed trees. You have a neighbour to the east that's with in spitting distance or beer can striking distance, and across the river are several highly visible properties. Some people will like having a few neighbours, particularly as they get older. For me the area is a bit over developed, with quite a few 1 or less acre parcels. The township has zoned a couple of parcels as "coastal residential - holding", I believe this is their way of stopping any further development. The sheltered water areas have in recent history had problems with toxic algae blooms.
Around the corner a vacant parcel sold at a tax sale last year for a little more than the minimum bid (8K?), and I believe there was only 1 bid. MPAC assessments of other vacant parcels is surprisingly low. Several other developed properties in the community have failed to get their asking price, mostly the listings expired. Also they were true water front. Given its age and condition it won't be an easy flip. The majority of reasonably timed sales in the Parry Sound area, are much more expensive, but, they're water front, and the buyer can walk-in, do nothing if they like.
So did the bidder do ok? Depends on what they're aiming for. If they just wanted a seasonal cottage, that's a bit rough and needing mid-range repairs, at $155, eh, they're right on the edge. Maybe 35 below retail. To get better and not pay more they'd end up over in the Burk's Falls or South River area or further east, not Georgian Bay. If they're looking to flip it at 250, won't happen. I've seen much better, for less, sit for a couple of seasons before selling.
So there's my opinion.
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Being a long time cottager in the area, and owning property near there. (Only made it out there at dusk, and couldn't stay long.) I'll risk an opinion.
So did the bidder do ok? If they're looking to flip it at 250, won't happen. I've seen much better, for less, sit for a couple of seasons before selling.
So there's my opinion.
Dave:
Excellent post. You just confirmed my original opinion to sit this one out.
Better opportunities will come up to spend my money and sometimes you just have to be patient and sometimes take your lumps and let others learn there is a reason why tax sales go for the prices they do; the hard way.
Oh well back to the archeological dig. Wish I was headed south like one of members to build sand castles and go bare hunting.
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Thanks Dave.
Whether its retail or tax sale I frequently find my jaw on the floor with some of these bids and offers. Many times I find myself questioning my valuations, am I missing something here?
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In total agreement with David.... have been flabbergasted a couple times this year when it came to getting out bid by a land slide
I wouldn't say valuations are off, but i can say for sure... there are a lot more players these days than a bunch of years ago; Could that have something to do with the increase in competition and high bids? maybe its just where i'm looking but close to the minimum doesn't seem to be an option in my neck of the woods anymore
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Anyone think Asian bidders, working through an intermediary, on some properties? Was visiting a chum recently, buyer's agent called, for serious discussion re chum's property, opening mention of $X; you know when they open with $X, as part of a land assembly, you are really, in the end, talking 2X up to 4X. there are a LOT of properties being bought for bigbucks, and it will continue to be so. Folks from China (and surrounding) and India think we are just giving it away, and maybe we are. Nothing I can do about it: don't have the necessary to fling about. However, my friend, the 1/2 Powerball winner ..... ;>))
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Thanks Dave.
Whether its retail or tax sale I frequently find my jaw on the floor with some of these bids and offers. Many times I find myself questioning my valuations, am I missing something here?
You are not missing anything. Its a tax sale and if you want something predictable call your friendly real estate agent.
Whether you miss by an inch or a mile the effect is the same.
If you measure stupidity by the amount you exceed the second place bidder this year I had the worst one I ever bid both in dollars and percentage terms.
I had another one that I missed by $200 and come in third. ???
I also spent several hours drifting down a haliburton lake, being confronted by an owner with big dogs and asking my lawyer if what we saw on title was a money laundering operation.
Compared to others I consider myself lucky. One of our regulars and a guy who kicked my ass several times this year for a time had even worse luck. He lost one property because his bank filled out the draft wrong and two others because the courier was 10 minutes late.
The market is constantly changing and we have to adapt to it. Personally I think sometime in the future I will look back at this year as the calm before the storm knowing what I know is coming in terms of competition. It is going to get brutal out there.
Of course if you add the 13,000 changes to the Ontario Building Code that is effective in 2 weeks and the change that the Ontario government did last month (they changed something that had existed for 50 years) and I am scrambling to protect myself before I tell everyone.
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Dave,
Are you referring to the blanket increase in development charges province wide?
I am reading something about this now. You're right about the calm before the storm, things just keep getting more interesting.
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I am not up to date on recent Provincial development changes....could you help give an overview?
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Dave,
Are you referring to the blanket increase in development charges province wide?
I am reading something about this now. You're right about the calm before the storm, things just keep getting more interesting.
Raisinbox:
Not development charges, more narrowly focused but can impact me somewhat hard. Development charges can hit us all, but this happens to have more impact on me personally.
The problem is that if I tip everyone off I will get trampled in the rush for the exit, so want to take care of myself personally initially.
This like so many of these changes is they are material and they happen without warning and the government seems to assume people can instantly adapt.
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Dave,
I completely understand your reasoning. I am hoping whatever it is, that the repercussions are nominal to say the very least. I think I have an idea of what you are referring to but
I will wait for you to share the information to confirm my suspicions
Instant adaptation ... if only it was that easy. ;D
Rich
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Dave,
I completely understand your reasoning. I am hoping whatever it is, that the repercussions are nominal to say the very least. I think I have an idea of what you are referring to but
I will wait for you to share the information to confirm my suspicions
Instant adaptation ... if only it was that easy. ;D
Rich
Rich:
Whatever it is it is sometime off and may only affect a smaller group. Right now there are much more significant problems in the province from this ice storm and I hope that everyone gets their power back and can enjoy an Xmas dinner. Merry Xmas
Dave
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Dave,
Are you referring to the blanket increase in development charges province wide?
Raisin Box:
could you outline your information on the development charge increases. I expect some in Northumberland county because of a new county wide official plan but further perspectives might prove of value for those wanting to build.
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Just some follow-up information. Had to retype the numbers so...
as per Archipelago website:
Summary of Bids
Description of Lands: PIN 52093-0133
1 $ 155,000.00
2 $ 125,000.00
3 $ 105,020.00
4 $ 82,300.00
5 $ 68,888.90
6 $ 67,090.00
7 $ 65,100.00
8 $ 55,000.00
9 $ 52,000.00
10 $ 46,160.00
11 $ 37,500.00
12 $ 32,500.00
13 $ 25,775.00
14 $ 25,205.00
15 $ 20,000.00
16 $ 18,600.00
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This one will get added to the list.
I have a bunch of properties that I've investigated over the last few years, that I return to just to see what's happening. Sometimes a property will sit and deteriorate, other times a full crew will gut and rebuild, sometimes people move in and just go with what comes.
Have to wait for the snow to start melting before I regularly get up there again.
Still looks pretty wintry (from the Deep Bay Association's Webcam)
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Have to wait for the snow to start melting before I regularly get up there again.
Still looks pretty wintry (from the Deep Bay Association's Webcam)
Dave:
What is your estimate of a reasonable fixup budget for this property pending snow melt?
Unless you are Mike Holmes often it is higher then people realize.
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I'd be blindly guessing when it came down to costs to do the renovations. Under the conditions I saw it, I couldn't see anything overtly broken. What I could see was a lot of aging, seasonal build quality, and some things which if they weren't causing trouble would eventually cause trouble.
For the individual(s) who won, its what they're willing to accept for cottage use, middle of May to Middle of September. I'm happy with a cottage with open framing on the inside, just no leaks and a view. If aesthetics are important, then they'll be doing siding, windows, doors, decking and possibly the roof. I'd be guessing again, but I'd say there is 3 or less inches of insulation in the walls, so they'd best to invest in layers of foam insulation for the exterior while doing the siding and windows.
Given the state of the exterior, the interior probably isn't a whole lot better. I couldn't see anything of the interior, but someone has. An extension ladder had been positioned to allow access to the second floor via a rear deck. I'd guess from what is typical for that kind of build and area, paneling in most, if not all rooms. Typical flooring might be particle board and plywood, with linoleum or carpeting. More work and expense.
I wouldn't say this was an abused or neglected property (well maybe recently it was). It was built in the early 70's for seasonal use, so some of it is approaching 40 years of use in a harsh environment.
In my mind the dollar signs are rolling over pretty fast, maybe a budget of $50-60,000 on the exterior. Probably wrong there, I catch a few of these reality shows where they spend $40,000 on a kitchen.
Two things that come to mind as possible issues for costs are, how much are the contractors and suppliers going to charge for traveling that far out, and at what point do the renovations require you to build to year-round building code standards further increasing the costs.
(Still looks like Winter)
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My bid was based on being a "do it yourself" type, and I looked at this one as something I could work on while staying there on weekends, holidays etc.. I have a few good friends that might like to make use of it too, in return for some help. It might have taken me a couple of years to get it into decent shape perhaps, but it could have been enjoyed by family and friends, once some of the work was completed, until it was ready for sale.
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My bid was based on being a "do it yourself" type, and I looked at this one as something I could work on while staying there on weekends, holidays etc.. I have a few good friends that might like to make use of it too, in return for some help. It might have taken me a couple of years to get it into decent shape perhaps, but it could have been enjoyed by family and friends, once some of the work was completed, until it was ready for sale.
Ronster:
I rest my case. Yours is a perfectly logical bid for private use for which a person can always afford to pay more. Immediate resale is more complicated and expensive as often you have to pay professionals unless you are in the construction business yourself.
As I said earlier I had no problem with your bid. For private use during construction you also gain the advantage of being able to do it in stages versus for resale you normally have to do all renovations prior to sale.
By delaying sale you may also be able to increase the price if Georgian Bay water levels rise which is important for this propberty. See charts and forecast.
http://www.lre.usace.army.mil/Portals/69/docs/GreatLakesInfo/docs/WaterLevels/MBOGLWL-combined_bulletin_and_backpage.pdf
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Rising water levels are good news for many of the cottagers all around the great lakes, unfortunately with my third place bid on this one, I am not among them.
As a side note, the municipality decided to keep both second, and third place bid deposits for the two week period, despite my protest that it was only second place they were supposed to hold!
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Rising water levels are good news for many of the cottagers all around the great lakes, unfortunately with my third place bid on this one, I am not among them.
As a side note, the municipality decided to keep both second, and third place bid deposits for the two week period, despite my protest that it was only second place they were supposed to hold!
Ronster:
If the municipality wanted to keep my third place bid I would let them. Municipalities are not as stupid as some people on this board think.
Maybe the first place bidder was likely to walk. Be patient. You know your stuff and will be successful in the end. Consider the analogy to baseball.
The best hitter only hits one out of 3 and strikes out more then he hits.
I have been called a barbarian by this guy 8) and a specialist by G2020. The truth is somewhere in the middle.
Be patient. If your bid pattern is like this one You will get what you want at a price you make money. Go back and read my posts about "bigfoot" and how many times I lost to him and you would be amazed at what is going on now. I lose to idiots all the time. Those guys I can handle but the people returning from the south I am worried about now.
The spring will be interesting. Let the games begin.
When you drive by Cobourg look me up. Us barbarians are social to people who earn our respect and I place you in that category.
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I took the positive view that there was a small possibility I could be awarded the tender, if first and second place bidders had forfeited their deposits. However, I probably would have been quite concerned as too why the top two bidders would have walked away from their money. Under this circumstance, the municipality could not legally keep my deposit, if I too decided not to pay the remaining 80% balance.
In addition to this tender I have had several second place bids in the last half year, with no first place bids! I second guess myself after losing, but conclude that I have bid reasonable amounts, and allow for respectable profit in my bids... otherwise what is the point?
Patience is not a problem, I did win one tender 3-4 years ago, problem is that my wife and I fell in love with the property, and are not likely to ever sell... not much of a good business plan, but it keeps me in the good books with my better half!
Thank you for the compliment and invite, Cobourg is a beautiful town, and I will try and stop by some time.
Cheers!
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Ronster, Municipalities will usually keep bids until they have had a chance to make sure that they are all good. I bid on one in Parry Sound years ago, and as it turned out, I was second and the first bid was eventually thrown out (albeit by a judge), so they should have kept the third as well. 8)
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That makes sense, unless the act governing tax sales specifies a time frame in which the deposits for tenders must be returned. I wonder if anyone has had an issue with their bid deposit being kept for an unreasonable amount of time?
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Yes, when the treasurer became aware of a last minute government lien registration - eventually the sale was cancelled. The Act allows the treasurer a great deal of discretion with respect to conducting a "fair and orderly sale".💰