Ontario Tax Sale Property Forum
Tax Sale Forum => Announcements => Topic started by: gimmellsmom on May 29, 2008, 05:24:15 PM
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The waterfront Dysart has been redeemed...
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Roll No. 46 24 020 000 21600 0000, 1036 Snowshoe Rd., Lot 61, Plan 482, Geographic Township of Dudley, In the Municipality of Dysart et al, County of Haliburton (No. 19), Subject to Easement and Restriction in Instrument No. 72126. File 06-08
Minimum Tender Amount: $9,680.96
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Given the state of the place I'm surprised - but bad for us, we really liked this one :-(
I'm curious to know what the bids would have been given the questionable state of the property (water issues, 15k for a driveway, cottage may or may not be salvageable...)?
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Too bad, I just sent a large cheque in the mail as I really wanted this one. Cottaged on this lake as a kid. More wasted time and money.
You got to wonder what kind of people don't pay their taxes for 10 years then suddenly come up with $10,000 and pay up.
The place will probably rot for another 10 years now.
Just venting....
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thats how the cookie crumbles. I was interested in this one but having a lot of trouble determining what to bid. I did not have time to do a site inspection which I think was essential for this one to determine true value.
Lot was too small for a septic system unless existing one .
Anyone wishing to disclose what they were prepared to offer.
For me I felt assessment was excessive.
Dave2
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The cottage was a wreck. Absolutely no value there. Similar lots can be found in the area for around 100K so I agree that the assessment is way too high. I'm not 100% sure that a septic system was impossible. Still this one could have made the township some good money.
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The value in the cottage was the precedent it set. More importantly it can be "repaired"
potentially without a building permit. Same with septic system.
If there is an old one it can be "renewed" which maybe a different standard then
a new one today.
Getting new structures approved today can be a pain. I have seen cases where the cost of the approval is more then the structure will cost. This is for a small outbuilding.
Dave2
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Dave2:
I know what you are saying. A fellow I know essentially replaced everything but the shadow of the original cottage. Taking a huge chance but he built a very similar structure and did not get a permit. Did it himself with a bunch of buddies so the local contractors didn't get involved.
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"Still this one could have made the township some good money."
For the record the town doesnt actually profit. The town gets the minimum bid and the remainder goes to the province in trust, The old owner can then go get the change from the sale if there are no creditors claiming on it IE banks or liens.
The only profit the town can make is if a bidder walks from the deposit , that goes direct to the town, not the proviince.
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Thanks for the info. I didn't know that. The province really bendsover backwards to accommodate the deadbeat landowner. I guess they get more than enough money from hard working people that pay their taxes on time every year to pay civil servants to administer this program.
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This system is in place to prevent towns from having incentive to scoop land or be vicious in regards to taxsales. Can you imagine if the town could profit, they would be merciless in screwing taxpayers. Sort of like the US where a bank keeps the profit from a foreclosure, they take every opportunity to grab property down there.
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I know we are getting way off topic hear but what the heck.
I live in the Niagara Region and I am sure we have the highest property taxes in Ontario. Why?? There is a huge inventory of delinquent commercial/industrial properties. Look all the tax sales for Niagara Falls. No one wants their property seized if you are a day late in paying your taxes but at some point the greater interest of the community must be taken into consideration. Most of the numbered corps that own these buildings have the resources to pay their taxes but are just holding off because our soft laws allow them to.
How much interest is charged on these back-taxes? Does anyone know?
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I think the interest runs around 8% . Niagara does have vicious tax RATE however I think it has allot to do with the low property values/low population and high costs associated with the parks etc. The cities math is sort of logical, 3 bedroom house in Niagara is worth 200 k but pays 3500 taxes, same house in Oakville cost 400 k and pays 4000 taxes so it is cheaper to buy and run the house in Niagara. Schools , roads etc cost the same to run so Niagara has a higher mill rate but the taxes are effectively the same.
Its a catch 22 , high taxes keep the house prices down, low house prices keep the tax mill rate high. Also Niagara has zip for commercial base considering it size so same deal, no commercial so high taxes, high taxes mean that no commercial will come there . Niagara also has a very low population density ( I'm guessing 1/5th of haltons) so they have allot of roads to maintain and lots of services to provide over a large area. In addition all agricultural areas get 75% off their taxes so all those farms with 2000 ft frontage will pay a couple K in property tax where residential with 2000 ft of frontage would be 30 or 40 homes and therefore 1 or 200 k in tax . Same amount of road to maintain but huge difference in revenue.
If you were to compare south Niagara with North Burlington. A country home south of Lyons and Montrose will cost 3 to 400K MAX and pay 4500 to 6000 taxes ( non agricultural) same house and same land on appleby line north of 407 will run 1.2 to 2 million and pay 12 to 20 K taxes . They are equal distance to stores, schools, etc . So who really has the higher tax ?
Compare Niagara on the lake with lakeshore in Burlington and Oakville, Oakvilles are worth min 5 times the value and in some cases 10 x the value .
I think you will see Niagara's mill rate go down as they population is increasing and there is allot ( huge amounts) of new development going on thru out the region. ( if they don't start lowering mill rate in the next few years, I would be talking to the mayor if I was you. or better yet, the papers)
In regards to the dead commercial land, Allot is brownfield (dirty) in Niagara so the city has clean up costs and the numbered companies that own the land have no money in the numbered company so there is nothing the city can do to collect as all they can do is taxsale the land and noone will buy it. Care to buy a old foundry site cheap ??
Also the Niagara downtown core is virtually a waste land . Walk for a block around city hall, 8 out of 10 storefronts are empty and therefore the landlords apply for tax relief. It has all been bought up by a developer with a promise of renewal but that takes time. Additionally the property is worth very little and therefore very Little tax revenue. Oakville Downtown. 2 million for a townhouse ( seriously , 13 being built downtown from 1.9 to 2.8 mil , 10 of the 13 are sold already , complete idiots)
Take a town like chippewa and the entire revenue from that town wouldnt be as much as just a few of Oakvilles estates. and the town costs a pile more to run then a few thousand feet of lakeshore in Oakville
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I was bored this morning so here is the statscan data
Regional
Population and dwelling counts Halton (CD) Niagara (CD)
Population in 2006 439,256 427,421
Total private dwellings 162,346 179,903
Population density per square kilometre 454.2 230.5
Land area (square km) 967.17 1,854.17
Average value of owned dwelling ($) 398,680 218,694
City to City Oakville Niagara Falls
Population in 2006 165,613 82,184
Total private dwellings 58,828 33,871
Average value of owned dwelling ($) 472,244 207,757
Population density per square kilometre 1,195.2 392.1
Land area (square km) 138.56 209.58
Based on average house prices and mill rates Niagara's taxes are actually 40% LESS then Oakville at the end of the day if you look at what it costs to live there.
Regionally its 25% less for Niagara versus halton
There is a whole pile of variables such as Farm %, Monster estates etc but at the end of the day it costs the same or less to live in Niagara falls and raise a family. In addition the average mortgage in Niagara is 500 less a month ( 850 versus 1350 ) giving you a lower cost of living in niagara by 6000 a year
Also check these stats, 10% more townhouses in Halton , so Niagara is getting a fully detached, halton gets townhouses
Single-detached houses - as a % of total occupied private dwellings 61.4 67.9
Semi-detached houses - as a % of total occupied private dwellings 4.9 5.3
Row houses - as a % of total occupied private dwellings 15.1 5.8
When you look at tax, you have to look at the big picture, not just the mill rate, Next time you look at your tax bill and want to bitch, look at the bottom line, not the Mill rate
Where in Niagara are you??
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Yeah I'd have to disagree with the person citing Niagara's high delinquency rate as caused by the "high" taxes. I believe it has much more to do with the local economy there. There's higher unemployment in that area, so less jobs, and less people with money to support all of the businesses both new and existing.
The area has the benefit of VERY affordable housing and commercial rental rates, but it's still not stopping the flow of people towards the GTA with the promise of many more job opportunities.
I do think Niagara is undervalued, but on the other hand I'm not rushing to invest my money there while the infrastructure there is abit shaky (abandoned houses and buildings, etc).
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Pfm1011
A lot of really interesting info. Thanks
I currently reside in Niagara Falls and am well aware that the area is in big trouble economically. We have the oldest average population of any region in Ontario and high unemployment and low wages. I don't expect my kids to stick around after they finish school. The tourist industry has been devastated since 9/11 with high dollar and the US passport issue. Still there are a few bright spots. They will be building a huge convention centre in Niagara Falls several golf course/resort communities are in the works. Local government has been pushing hard to extend GO service to Niagara. We need major investment in the downtown core, it is a real disgrace. I look to places like Cambridge that have really fixed up their downtown after years of decline. The region has pretty much given up on attracting any industry as they want to be close to the centre of the universe (Toronto). Niagara will always be more Tim Hortons than Starbucks but still we can do a lot better for our residents.
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The reduction of the tourism is really a blessing in disguise, Tourism only creates low income service jobs and is seasonal. I know there is some retirement projects going onto Marineland Boulevard and foreign money coming into the area. The city has extended water to the south down Montrose for commercial and is connecting Thorold and Niagara water systems which will result in the eventual connection of the two cites into one.
With the population growth of the Golden Horseshoe , it is inevitable Niagara will grow but it will be well below the rest of southern ontario until we run out of land due to the attitude of the locals. The downtown is dead but the locals have no one to blame then themselves for that as they have been screwing the tourists for years with ridiculous prices and crap food. Not even gentle screwing, it is a blatant 30 to 50% higher even at franchises. It was OK to screw the tourists when you had a ton of them, Now the US tourists have dried up , No one in southern ontario will even plan on having dinner down there when or if they do visit. I have friends and family in the UK and Sweden and get allot of visitors, They all want to go to the falls and we make the silly trips 6 or 8 times a year. First couple times we did the falls and then drive up to Niagara on the lake for dinner, only to be served overpriced dog food, absolute crap. Now we blow right thru and don't even bother stopping. Its a shame as because it should be a destination spot but the greed has turned me off, and I guarantee you that I'm not the only one. I wont even think of going to shaw as I cant get a decent meal. Stratford on the other hand , I can get a real nice dinner , so where am I buying tickets and spending my money?. I'm an ex airline pilot and have travelled the world and Niagara Falls is one of the worst I have seen for screwing tourists. (Rome is way worse but at least the food is good). Go to Wendys on Clifton Hill and try to figure out why its 30% more then any other Wendys?? Its OK we are stupid tourists and wont notice and the locals giggle everytime you get the local discount.
Industry wont move out there due to high commercial taxes. back to the catch 22, .In order to really succeed and draw industry the city needs to lower the commercial tax rate substantially and get the jobs. The housing that goes with the jobs will pay the taxes. Take a look at Arizona. No local /state commercial taxes for 20 years..renewable.. They are booming ,they have dragged the entire aerospace industry out of California. Heavy industry also has a min ratio of 3 to 1 so 10 thousand Hughes aerospace jobs= 30 thousand additional jobs.
As a Niagara resident , Try to figure out why Toyota and Honda built multiple plants in Woodstock and Alliston and Niagara Region cant get the factories despite being minutes to multiple border crossings, primary rail lines and unlimited electrical power?? I somehow suspect that the Japanese just might have loved to be near the falls not only for economic / location reasons but for spiritual. President of Toyota probably went out for dinner in Niagara on the lake and was insulted by the prices.
I can guarantee you that Niagara EcDev pitched but didn't offer one penny of tax break and probably had $10 a foot development charge.
Niagara falls should be the number one location for Japanese investment money in North America yet doesn't see a penny of it. If I was local I would be asking why?
Anyone who visits feels they have been screwed so they sure as hell aren't even going to look at retiring or investing out there. Next time you get the local discount..think about this.
( my morning rant)
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Wow, the picture you paint is so bleak I feel like taking my own life!!!!!
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I can't comment on Niagara, but the Dysart property along with a mess of a cottage, also had soil drainage issues (why the contractor thought the cottage shifted) and required a driveway... I was quoted 12-15k for the driveway as it's on solid rock that has to be blasted! There may have been room for a septic, but you'd probably have been better off with compsoting toilets and finding a method to deal with the rest of the gray water given the soil problems.
In a nutshell, IF we got it it was going to take a nice chunk of change to bring it up to useable / sellable condition.
Given the changes coming to cottage country property taxes in the very near future, you'll probably see this one back in four years - if they can't pay now how will they pay when its double. It was a really nice piece of land though. There was a lot of interest from neighbours (it pays to be sweet to contractors...) who thought they'd get it for around the tax bill price. With the financial investment needed to make it liveable we figured we'd bid around low-20's. To make a profit on it you couldn't go too much higher I'd think - the lot was only 1/3 acrea with a lot of work/$$ needed on a piece you might sell for 100k.
But it was nice. (Yes, I'm a bit bitter!)
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Interesting enough that about the price range (low to mid 20'S I was prepared to consider. My big concern was sceptic approvals.
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Totally off topic guys, but you all make good points.
Look at the bottom line, not the mill rate.
Municipalities can and most do charge as much as 15% per year on arrears.
Staff costs, as well as advertising, legal, etc.. in conducting tax sales are all added to the redemption price and so the general tax payer isn't paying for the tax sale process.
The older Municipalities in Ontario, like Hamilton, Niagara (old industry due to proximity to first hydro), Ottawa, Windsor....all suffered heavily when the Harris Government downloaded social services and a slew of other costs to them back in '98. Toronto was assisted by having the rest of the GTA chip in to pool their costs. Prior to '98 those costs were pooled province-wide, the Crombie commision warned the Province not to do it, but they went ahead anyways and covered it all over by forcing amalgamations to try to effect costs savings in other ways, and really roil the waters. Amalgamations in Niagara, and Muskoka were in the works, when they realized that it was all back-firing and they ran for their political lives.
OK, so I've been away for a few days, and now I've had my rant. Thanks for listening.
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it,s on the mls for $136,000
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Same thing happened here locally last fall. Get a really good tax sale opportunity to bid for an opportunity to buy a piece of my own private island and at the last minute a real estate agent persuades owner to redeem and list it. I even had the cheque cut.
Maybe we have to go looking farther a field.
Anybody know if there are upcoming tax sales in James Bay or Lake Nipigon.
Dave2.
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The property in Caledon has been redeemed. This is the second one I cannot bid on. WHen is my turn, then?
HHS
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Get used to it, a vast majority of the properties are redeemed by the owners, You have to realize that very few people will let 200k go for 20 k debt unless they are dead, bankrupt corporation or have lost major lawsuits and have no point in saving as it is already technically gone
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Get used to it, a vast majority of the properties are redeemed by the owners, You have to realize that very few people will let 200k go for 20 k debt unless they are dead, bankrupt corporation or have lost major lawsuits and have no point in saving as it is already technically gone
Excellent points. Of the three that I have purchased: One was deceased; the second was a defunct corporation; and, the third had no value to the owner at the time. Fits the bill to a ' T ' ...I'd say.