Ontario Tax Sale Property Forum
Tax Sale Forum => Questions and Answers => Topic started by: speedfreeksteve on August 20, 2008, 02:03:23 AM
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I recently got a few offline messages about Florida properties since I've bought a couple in the past year and they were basically the same questions so I thought I'd answer them here, and maybe generate some discussion from others that may have some experiences in buying Florida property.
My main questions were like this:
Did you use foreclosure lists/websites?
No. I used trulia.com, ebay (mostly for research and land comparison), mls, and real estate agent websites.
What issues are there?
You have to make sure #1 that it's not a "scrub jay lot" (look it up). Also be careful in "platted land" areas. There's dozens of massive subdivisions in Florida with tons of roads (and divided lots) but barely a house on them due to no services (water, sewer, roads, etc). Perfect for selling to out of state buyers.
Benefits?
No lawyers needed in most cases (you use a Title company). No land transfer tax. Generally lower property taxes than Canada. Lock into US currency (I bought one of mine when the CDN dollar was $1.07). Land clearing costs and surveys are about a third the price as in Ontario.
Advice?
Buy the best waterfront or close to water property that you can afford. If you have to choose between 2 close to water and 1 on the water, you'll make way more $ with the one on the water. Tier 1 is waterfront gulf access, Tier 2 is freshwater canal, Tier 3 is water view.
There's tons of properties including homes under $100,000 up for sale. A large percentage of Florida properties on the market right now are bank owned since no individuals want to sell right now and take a loss unless they have to.
Here is one sample area this is low crime, well priced, and visually appealing:
http://www.trulia.com/FL/Englewood/34224/
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Good info Speed. Thanks for the tips. Did you go down and inspect the properties before. Could access inside? Thanks.
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Speed et al:
There are other bargains out there. you don't have to stick with Florida. For Frank in the offseason when his new cottage is covered with snow and ice. First the reference.(12 castles for under $250,000)
http://www.intlistings.com/articles/
Here's Franks new home for just one euro: Now if I just can convince my accountant that I have to charge the visit off as a business expense. (go to reference for photos)
A Masseria in Italy
The Lowdown: A masseria is a farm or estate, and many Italian masserias once belonged to royalty. This particular Salento masseria is located in the Puglia (Apulia) countryside. It needs vast restoration for its fortifications, which include cultivated lands and terraces. Once restored, this palace could be breathtaking. The price, which seems ridiculously low, seems to be part of an auction scheme, as the Realtor states no prices on the home site, simply, ?Reserved negotiations,? whereas other listings show the 1 EUR price.
Why You Should Want This Castle: Although you may pay more than $1.50 USD for this property, if you have the wherewithal to purchase and renovate this masseria, you then could have a wise investment on your hands. Did we mention that this property is located near Lecce, a city also known as the ?Florence of the South,? for its rich Baroque architectural monuments and for its location in southern Italy? Speaking of location (location, location), this property is located in a region in southeastern Italy that borders the Adriatic Sea to the east, the Ionian Sea to the southeast, and the Strait of ?tranto and Gulf of Taranto in the south. Its southern portion is known as ?Salento,? a peninsula that forms a high heel on the ?boot? of Italy. This is an ideal purchase for anyone who loves the countryside and endless water.
Price:: 1 EUR ($1.58414 USD)
Dave2
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Speed et al:
For Frank in the offseason when his new cottage is covered with snow and ice. First the reference.(12 castles for under $250,000)
Here's Franks new home for just one euro: Now if I just can convince my accountant that I have to charge the visit off as a business expense. (go to reference for photos)
A Masseria in Italy
Why You Should Want This Castle:Price:: 1 EUR ($1.58414 USD)
Dave2
I am actually tempted to pay the Euro and bring the property back into the family. Long sad story, but if you weren't fascist, then the best thing to do was leave Italy and all of your belongings and head to Canada. The government, much like ours, would then seize your property and resell it. What goes around, comes around.
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Speed et al:
For Frank in the offseason when his new cottage is covered with snow and ice. Dave2
ps. there is nothing wrong with Muskoka in the winter...you gotta have a snowmobile though and love to ski as well. Ice fishing is another great sport...sit in a hut and drink stuff all day, maybe catch a fish or two...drink more stuff, etc...you get it, just don't eat the yellow snow, unless it's in a glass and you just poured scotch into it.
Quit picking on me guys...I'm developing quite a complex. Any shrinks out there? :P
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Good info Speed. Thanks for the tips. Did you go down and inspect the properties before. Could access inside? Thanks.
I bought just land. No inspection, did a decent pile of research. You should try google maps "street view" for the US.. you can see things like you're standing on the street in front of the property.
Came close to going for a 2 bedroom house with pool for under 70k but someone scooped it up before I could even book a cheap flight out of Buffalo. The agents down there are hurting so they encourage people to fly down and have a look inside and out. My last flight to Florida was about $80 including tax each way so it's crazy not to fly down if you have the time.
I agree that there's other areas worth looking at. California and Arizona are a good buyers market now too. Personally I want somewhere I could drive to from here if I wanted to, or fly to for a reasonable price (which rules out anywhere within Canadian borders)... and I like Florida.. the west coast of it, not the east coast.
Muskoka winters are great too. Nothing like a winterized cottage and having a view of almost nothing but snow.
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sorry Frank:
I thought you were descended from royalty and thus a winter place in the old country would be appropriate. Other then a few people descended from lowlifes like me, only descendents of royalty are allowed into Ontarios best university; McMaster right??
Didn't intend to pick on you but if you still feel need of a counsellor can I offer a cheaper substitute?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH7bjIajc0A
Note not recommended for the ladies.
It has additional benefits of testing the structural integridty of your new place for no extra cost.
If this does not work first time you could always test this alternate as a second iron in the fire.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L11fQ6-QTIc&feature=related
enjoy the summer finally at last. I will try to find a suitable counterpart for the ladies while we wait for the fall.
Dave2
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Dave2
All is forgiven. Maybe it would be fun to share a beer sometime...ha.
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Dave2
ps. Mac was good enough for us low-lifes, but not for my offspring...wouldn't be caught dead near there...can't possibly go to the same place our parents went...too close to home...not Ivy League..I've heard it all. Would have saved me a bundle.
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It has additional benefits of testing the structural integridty of your new place for no extra cost.
If this does not work first time you could always test this alternate as a second iron in the fire.
That was a good one Dave. Now I know why one is never enough, [second link].
The florida listings seem overwhelming. Also it seems to me some of the foreclosure listings are the same as market value. Maybe I should just have another beer from Denmark ;).
I guess it is a case of do your homework. It is hard enough to do your homework close to home
Happy trails
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What is the best way to buy a property foreclosure? REO, auction, or pre foreclosure. For the auction, do you have to travel or is it online. 'Real estate owned' is what I assume is the most common route. Are the listed prices what these properties go for? Or do offers drive the price up. Some prices I find hard to believe.
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Preforeclosures are a waste of time 99% of the time. You can put in an offer that's accepted and you still usually don't get the property.
The auctions have practically dried up due to lack of interested buyers. Online real estate tools or agents are a good bet though.
I would still recommend anyone just pick an area or two with some decent deals and check them out in person.
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Ken, this is one of the forums i was talking about, but read through several .....there is alot of information and helpful posters
steve ;D
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Steve:
Is Port Charlotte a nice area? How safe are these homes from hurricanes? There is one in Port Charlotte, stucco, inground pool, on canal, gulf access, under 100K and too good to be true, unless its a crime infested area.
What is a 'short sale'?
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What is a 'short sale'?
I have been looking at Florida properties since Steves announcement of his southern acquisition. A short sale means the seller's lender is accepting less than the mortgage balance to release an existing mortgage. This doesn't mean the lender will accept your offer, even if the seller accepts it. Lender acceptance may depend on the percentage of your down payment, closing date, etc. Proof of funds may be required.
As a general rule, the seller will be in default on their mortgage and must have stopped making mortgage payments, before a lender will consider a short sale. Next is the foreclosure process.
There are great deals down there. I was looking for a house on the water ie gulf access canal but I am now looking for a house as close to the beach as possible, on a key.
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I vacationed quite a few times in the Florida keys during the 90's. The keys are very expensive and sort of the 'cottage country' of mainland Floridians. Food and water is brought in from the mainland, making those necessities expensive. Except for hotels, fishing, restaurants, dive shops and of course 'Sloppy Joes' where Ernest Hemingway apparently liked to 'hang out', there isn't much there. I've always wanted to retire there, but haven't managed my wealth properly and won't be retiring for at least another 20 years.
I do not know other areas in Florida and know the larger cities are crime infested. The area of Englewood and Port Charlotte seems to be a newer area. Similar to Toronto, Florida seems to have 'prime real estate' areas and areas that do not appreciate much, even in a very good economy. Florida also has several trailer parks, manufactured homes and 'mobile homes most of which are being foreclosed. The one I was looking at is neither foreclosure or short sale and is selling for 89K. I compared it to homes in an area that I know to be more affluent (Naples and West Palm beach) and similar homes were selling for more than 200K or 300K. I do not have anyone to contact in Florida and don't know if I should trust a realestate agent since, unlike Toronto, Florida has a lot of racial issues and crime areas. In some areas, real estate does not appreciate due to these factors.
What type of area is Port Charlotte? Is it a 'newer' area on its way to becoming established?
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What is a 'short sale'?
I have been looking at Florida properties since Steves announcement of his southern acquisition. A short sale means the seller's lender is accepting less than the mortgage balance to release an existing mortgage. This doesn't mean the lender will accept your offer, even if the seller accepts it. Lender acceptance may depend on the percentage of your down payment, closing date, etc. Proof of funds may be required.
As a general rule, the seller will be in default on their mortgage and must have stopped making mortgage payments, before a lender will consider a short sale. Next is the foreclosure process.
There are great deals down there. I was looking for a house on the water ie gulf access canal but I am now looking for a house as close to the beach as possible, on a key.
Key Largo is close to the mainland. The middle keys such as Big Pine, Marathon etc... are nice places to vacation and even people from the mainland have fishing boats and vacation homes there since there is no nice places to go fishing or any nice marinas that are not part of a hotel on the mainland. Key West is very touristy and if you're homophobic, then not the place for you. Also lots of young people that do not know what year it is, the hippies of the new milenium. When I was there, I parked where there was a meter and had difficulty putting the money in, I was about to move my rental car to another spot, when a van appeared, I asked for help. A couple of older teen or 20ish guys jumped out and smashed the meter with a baseball bat and said, 'now you don't pay the establishment'.
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Key west is nice but the problem is that even at 50 cents on the dollar the houses are insanely overpriced. There has been hyper inflation there for a decade or more and a "bargain" there is really no deal.
You had better love the lifestyle down there to justify paying for it and hope it stays trendy for the gays. Should it fall from the "gay graces" then you wont be able to give away a house down there. One can only rehash old "hemmingway slept here" stories for so long.
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I'm not old enough, but there's quite a few 'gated communities' down there. They range for 80K to 1 million, depending on the type of amenities and type of home (mobile, manufactured or solid). Many of the keys are built up, there are very few homes on Big Pine Key or marinas, as these areas develop, the prices of other homes will go down. Since the real estate bust in the states, the keys are probably the only place that haven't gown down, homes have maintained their values, keep in mind the retired people have a fixed income, they do not have jobs to lose, many of the them are living of past investments, 401K plans and good pensions. The other places in Florida have gone down quite a bit and of course, our dollar isn't as high now as it was a couple of years ago but a lot higher than it was in the 90's.
PFM: Aren't you also part of a mutual fund, stock market investment forum that also deals in real estate? Whats their website?
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"PFM: Aren't you also part of a mutual fund, stock market investment forum that also deals in real estate? Whats their website"
Absolutely not in any mutual fund or stock group
As per the keys not going down, they have tanked in Key west but it is still silly due to the last ten years, The upper keys are nice , and a lot closer to Miami
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Just finished watching a Dan Rather on HD net...Nasty ....10000 foreclosures every month , apparently 1 in six home is negative equity..
the one thing they showed was this company who handles auctions,..definately worth a visit
several hundred foreclosed houses auctioned every day..
http://www.ushomeauction.com/ (http://www.ushomeauction.com/)
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Over the past year I've seen nothing but negative.
But I haven't looked at 10,000 a month though.
That would cost large.
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apparently 1 in six home is negative equity..
That is bad enough. I heard today. in the States, one in four mortgages are worth more than the value of their homes. It is hard to see the end of this road. An r/e agent in Florida gave me a list today of places, the last one "to be auctioned on the court house steps". That is a little impersonal for the family home.
My guess... I think things are going to get worst down there.
One way Canadians can help..... buy florida properties, or US properties in general, This puts dollars back into their economy. I am not that altruistic and this is such a land slide it likely won't make a huge difference. However if anyone feels they are a taking advantage of the situation or guilty... don't, they need the money. It is a buyers market down there. If you ever wanted a place in the sun it might be a good time. Just remember, location.
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You know what they say 'if the U.S has a cold, Canada eventually catches it', we are not immune to the deepening recession in the U.S. There are still people that have job security, mostly those that work in the public service. Perhaps Obama will make a difference in his 4 year term and see the U.S out of a recession and into recovery, Canada will follow.
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The agent who said it was to be auctioned on the court house steps could have told you it was a Judicial Auction, which is the final stage in foreclosure in Florida. Usually the bank holding the mortgage is there to make sure the bids will at least pay them what they are owed, so hard to get a deal. If it does not get any other higher bids, the bank buys it, then it becomes REO - bank owned, and goes back on the market through them or a realtor.
As it happens, I just had a book published on how to buy property in Florida for Canadians, called Buy Florida, so it is interesting to see this thread on here. Not sure what the rules are on advertising, but if anyone is interested in the book, contact me, or the publisher site, - rosseaupublishing.com, or ask questions in this thread.
Cameron
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10000 foreclosures every month
OOPS that was a big typo...its 10000 EVERY DAY
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On the other hand, NBC news this week was reporting that 92% of home owners still were current on their mortgage payments, giving some perspective to the alarming numbers thrown around in the press.
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Like I said. There are many mobile homes in Florida and people can't make their payments. When the economy was good, a lot of people and developers started building vacation homes in Florida, now they can't afford the payments. I've seen a few foreclosures that needed TLC. If they can't make their mortgage payments, they certainly can't afford maintenance. I've seen foreclosures homes that aren't completely built, no kitchen or bathroom cabinets etc... someone started building and couldn't finish.
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NBC news this week was reporting that 92% of home owners still were current on their mortgage payments
Im not really sure if thats really worth bragging about.. 1 in 6 is in negative equity but 92% of our people havent lost their house yet...their 401K is worth zero and they have to work till they are 200 years old ..but they are still current on their mortgage..
Thanks to the wall street boys..the american dream is in the crapper....Of course the Canadian and US banks are opposing the European countires demand to reform the banking and add oversight. Imagine they want to raise the bank equity above 10% , Next they will want to raise the federal reserve equity above 10% . How is a country to survive if they cant have a currency based at 1% equity 99% credit
"you can bail us out..but no way are you to regulate us"
What drives me nuts in trying to look at Florida /South Carolina houses is everybody wants you to sign up and pay..Up here I get power of sale listings everyday for free , Down south the agent gets a commission but they want a subscription fee too..???
Might be time to send the wife down to do some shopping.
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NBC news this week was reporting that 92% of home owners still were current on their mortgage payments
Might be time to send the wife down to do some shopping.
I send my wife shopping, but she only gets as far as Grove City Penn. and then comes home with an armload of tax free clothing. After gas, hotel, meals and exchange It's usually not as great a deal as she thinks...but hey, it's an outing.
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I just returned from Florida, in the Venice/Sarasota area and was surprised by the amount of for sale signs compared to when I was there in November. The news was still very focused on the foreclosure problems, although they also were reporting that sales were up, with many foreclosure properties receiving multiple offers. The unusual thing is even with increased sales, the price of homes is still dropping, 10% for Jan. in that area. They did not explain why, but I would assume that it is because more homes are coming up for sale than are being bought.
You are right about agents wanting you to sign up for info. It is an eye opener down there to see the low prices, but the market value according to the county is usually still way below what they are asking. There is still room for prices to drop as far as I can tell. Getting a good agent down there who does not sugar coat the prices and issues is very important. The area I am in has problems with homes with rotted drywall from China, copper pipes weakened by the type of concrete they are in, and lead paint, just to name a few things to watch out for.
Cameron
Author of Buy Florida
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You are right about agents wanting you to sign up for info. It is an eye opener down there to see the low price
I have a few r/e agents that regularly email info on specific properties or potential properties and they have only talked the talk regarding foreclosures. I have only found one site that did not require signing up for foreclosures and what they had were unbelievable dumps. I would post the site except for the fear of smites.
What is the spread between foreclosure prices and mls prices? My guess not a lot. In all cases the lender is trying to sell to re-coop their loan and is looking at market values to set their price whether it is a short sale or banked owned and if it is at auction they simply buy it if the bid price is too low.
On the Trulia there is a site that posts foreclosures called Realty Trac, but you only get it free for 30 days.
Are there any free foreclosure listings?
There is still room for prices to drop as far as I can tell
With the US gov't on a spending spree my guess is the US dollar will tank likely b4 property values stabilize. Likely the cdn dollar will, rise again. I think this will be a key year for southern real estate shoppers. :)
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". Likely the cdn dollar will, rise again. I think this will be a key year for southern real estate shoppers. "
I would not bet on a strong dollar when looking at investment. The Canadian dollar will not go above 84 or 85 for a very long time if ever again. Our dollar was artificially strong based on 150 a barrel oil..That will not happen again in the forseeable future.
Our banks have been bailed out just like the US and we are getting hit very hard by the slowdown in manufacturing. We lost our factories years ago and survived by selling raw materials to china..who is no longer buying ..
It is good for our economy to hover 15 to 20 under the US dollar so I would forget the dollar in profit calculations. Additionally you will drive yourself mad watching the forex
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I do not know other areas in Florida and know the larger cities are crime infested. The area of Englewood and Port Charlotte seems to be a newer area. Similar to Toronto, Florida seems to have 'prime real estate' areas and areas that do not appreciate much, even in a very good economy. Florida also has several trailer parks, manufactured homes and 'mobile homes most of which are being foreclosed. The one I was looking at is neither foreclosure or short sale and is selling for 89K. I compared it to homes in an area that I know to be more affluent (Naples and West Palm beach) and similar homes were selling for more than 200K or 300K. I do not have anyone to contact in Florida and don't know if I should trust a realestate agent since, unlike Toronto, Florida has a lot of racial issues and crime areas. In some areas, real estate does not appreciate due to these factors.
What type of area is Port Charlotte? Is it a 'newer' area on its way to becoming established?
I'm not old enough, but there's quite a few 'gated communities' down there. They range for 80K to 1 million, depending on the type of amenities and type of home (mobile, manufactured or solid). Many of the keys are built up, there are very few homes on Big Pine Key or marinas, as these areas develop, the prices of other homes will go down. Since the real estate bust in the states, the keys are probably the only place that haven't gown down, homes have maintained their values, keep in mind the retired people have a fixed income, they do not have jobs to lose, many of the them are living of past investments, 401K plans and good pensions.
I can comment on some of the things you mentioned.
What do you mean by a "newer" area? Englewood and PC have been developed starting in the 60's and 70's.. with many new developments just like anywhere else. One benefit of late has been that Hurricane Charley destroyed much of the older and lower quality developments and many have been rebuilt into more modern and nicer developments.
Personally I would stay away from gated communities. It's not the same as a gated community in the GTA where it's mainly built for privacy and prestige. Down in Florida their primary purpose is for safety. If an area is full of gated communities then you can take that as a pretty good indication of the local crime rate. I don't see the point of paying to live somewhere where I would need to live behind a 12 foot wall with 24 hour security.
You mentioned racial issues. Ironically, I would say many of the general areas with racial issues actually have the more expensive areas within them. Miami, West Palm, Fort Lauderdale and Orlando all have both ultra expensive properties and high violent crime rates. I prefer the Gulf coast personally.. alot less crime, and less touristy and overpriced.
I have noticed that sales prices (not "listing" prices) have stabilized in many parts of Florida since around November which I take as a good sign for the future as a landowner there.
As for places in the US that haven't gone down much.. Rochester, NY has been pretty stable too believe it or not.
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In answer to 26.2's questions, there are some free foreclosure sites but you get what you pay for. Many of the sites offer some view of the home and price, but if you want details you need to sign up. Realty Trac and Foreclosures.com are the two that most people use and find somewhat useful, and give you a free trial period so you can judge for yourself.
The spread between MLS price and foreclosure price is dependent on what the bank is willing to take, which will be different in each case. A good agent may be able to help find the banks willing to deal, but they are often frustrated by the extra tiime involved in dealing with banks who do not want to play ball, and clients like us who want to put really low offers in to a lot of places.
Banks are obligated to get fair market value, so that is why the prices for foreclosures seem high, but prices keep falling and number of homes for sale keeps going up, keeping pressure on the market.
Cameron Roach
author of Buy Florida
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Sounds like abit of "theoretical" knowledge on here and not as much first-hand knowledge.
I should add that when buying a foreclosure in Florida, the banks won't even talk about an offer until you show proof that you either have the money in the bank to buy it, or you have pre-approved financing. That was definitely the case for the last Florida foreclosure property that I bought last summer.
Searching for foreclosures specifically isn't necessarily the best use of time and money. Right now over half of the MLS properties in Florida are bank foreclosures, so you really don't need much extra help in finding them beyond skimming through the listings. You can pay the $30 or so a month for Reality-Trac, but there's not much added value in having a list of properties that are in the process of foreclosure since it will be at least 6 months to a year before you have any chance of even putting an offer in on those properties.
My experience with real estate agents at the current time is that things have been VERY slow for them in the past few years. Not many sellers other than bank foreclosures, and the private people selling are for the most part trying to get as close to 2005 prices for their properties as they can. On the buyer side their business has all but dried up. This has added up to the real estate agents being very eager and accommodating to bend over backwards for any business that they can get, even if it is a low ball offer.
With the Florida banks I have found they have also been very nice to work with since they're just happy to be unloading some inventory to keep themselves afloat.
Take the knowledge here with a grain of salt. I didn't write a book.. but I have bought a few Florida properties in the past couple of years and I'm still actively looking for more.