Ontario Tax Sale Property Forum
Tax Sale Forum => Announcements => Topic started by: Dave2 on February 10, 2012, 11:23:23 AM
-
I have said before some of the numbers that have been mentioned for this property don't make sense. Leave aside the issues outlined in Madoc 2 and Madoc 3 threads; remember also the property is occupied. (Madoc 4 anyone)
Back to basics lets look at a realistic value. We can't look at the building but we can consider the land value. Here is a current listing of major riverfront property - 3600 ft (almost a kilometer) ; not contaminated like the Moira from a well known local realtor.
http://www.century21.ca/bob.bancroft/Property/ON/K0K_2K0/TWEED/LINGHAM_LAKE_RD/0
It has cabins and everything. Regular real estate sale. $600 an acre asking price. This is not the only one. And you were going to bid how much for the tax property; with all of the problems?
-
Hi All,
Here are a few personal observations about what is going on with Madoc. Again, I wasn't trying to give false information or misleading info. I was merely putting out some info I had heard about the area. I was pretty specific that all this was alleged and I'm sorry if people had to drive out of their way to check it out (at least you got to kill some time). I may have been off on the #?s (acres vs. hectares) but the fact is there was a large chunk of land sold for a substantial amount of money just west of the tax sale land. This might be of interest to some on the board. I thought it good to get that info out. I'm not interested in purchasing in the area (if anyone does have any info on the large Frontenac piece that just got tax sold they can PM me?I would be interested in hearing about it) but others might.
I still think the alleged Longyear sale's math doesn't make sense or there is more at work here? Even at the most extreme case for their purchase- 12,000 hectares/ or 30,000 acres which Dave2 has said is more accurate (I'm not sure is this is accurate- the whole township is only 72,000 acres- the North West corner is only 14,000 acres (Barker Road north- Hwy 62 east) but let's use it for arguments sake.
12,000 hectares = 30,000 acres
17,000,000 (million sale Price.allegedly)
=$570/ acre for raw land??should there have been a deeper discount for such a large purchase?.is there more at play?.not just timber rights?
If there is a mistake with the 0?s (which I think) in the above example then that # rises dramatically. I'm not saying this is accurate, right or even happened. I'm not sure what/if any other lands where included. Again, this is way out of my league as well (I'm not even interested in betting netpred for Beers!). It is info that might be valuable to some or not.
I also made reference to the large chuck of land even further west (but not across Hwy 62) that is for sale. I offered it as info on the weirdness's on what is going on in the area. The large chunk is currently listed and being marketed for Jr. Mining companies. http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=11046861&PidKey=-1356463688 As I said I?m not sure I've ever heard of someone trying to sell a potential mine on MLS.
How much is the tax sale land????? No idea??especially?..if you can't get the kid playing the banjo on the porch out of the house/ shack. Is there any correlation at all??? I'm not sure? Does it matter if it gets redeemed (as netpred says) anyway. It least it gives us all more information.
Again, I only offered my info as background and some info for members of the forum. It at least got some people thinking during the dog days of winter.
Happy Bidding.
Jima
-
570/ acre for raw land??should there have been a deeper discount for such a large purchase
It is actually an increase in cost per acre for large purchases as large holdings are very rare and therefore a premium applys. 5 years or so ago I went after 1000 acres of shield with ep protection north of kingston . There was no potential for any development, mining or timber . .Had 80 acre lake and 3 to 400 worth of viceroy . It was strictly for a family camp. It sold for 2950 an acre .
Try to find 1500 acres..good luck ..... Picture the ratio like a diamond 10 carat diamonds are 50 times the value of 1 carat
You cannot use the value of longyear purchase as any reference for this land. Apples to oranges,Diamond to Coal. 150 acre pieces are a dime a dozen especially in this area . , actually asking is the 500 an acre range and that is ASKS We also have no knowledge of Mine/timber value which this piece has no value other then recreational
You will note that Domtar only paid 387 in 1996 so I suspect that the 17 million is for multiple pieces thoughout the province. If the deal included 10 pieces in the province, each piece would show the 17 mil as the sale price . Values for portfolio purchases are not broken down on the land registry
update
In just Hasting County alone there is 207 active pieces owned by Longyear and most if not all are part of the that purchase on 5/27/2011. I am guessing this goes into tens of thousands of acres. I have no idea how many more pieces in the province. If you have access, search J.M. LONGYEAR in hastings alone, you will get an idea of the scope of the Domtar portfolio purchase.
-
Thanks for the info. You learn something new every day! I didn't realize that land registry lumps everything together and it doesn't get broken down at least a little bit. You wonder what Revenue Canada does if they sell off portions and don't have a amount assigned to a specific piece of property. I do know that they are pulling a lot of wood out of there this winter, maybe that's why Dave2 was slipping and sliding all over the place.
The 1000 acres wasn't near Kaladar was it? I looked at about 700 acres a few years ago but its price definitely wasn't near the price/ acre you are talking about.
Thanks again all the constructive info on the board.
-
The 1000 acres wasn't near Kaladar was it? I looked at about 700 acres a few years ago but its price definitely wasn't near the price/ acre you are talking about.
Thanks again all the constructive info on the board.
Jima:
Most of the property I was referring to I believe was on the north side of Bannockburn road about halfway in between 62 highway and island road. I did not bother to mark it with any accuracy because I was mainly trying to see if there was some industrial activity like a mining company headframe, that would account for the high valuation. Given Domtar's extensive holdings it would not surprise me that they also have land around Kaladar.
One thing to recognize is that the Domtar Trenton mill has been based on recycled fiber I believe for 30 plus years so there maybe considerable timber value that would skew normal valuations. Certainly Longyear / Domtar would have taken that into account when the sale was negotiated.
The one I illustrated around Sault St. Marie had $3,000,000 in timber value alone.
Of more note I did not see anything spectacular on the tax sale property from a timber perspective although it was difficult to view given all the slip sliding around.
-
My mistake......I'll figure out the proper way to respond to threads sometime :-[. My question referring to the Kaladar land was in reference to the land Pfm1011 was talking about in his post about the land north of Kingston not the tax sale land which I have good knowledge of it's location.
-
The piece I was referring to was hewlett packard rd on North shore rd longborough lake. It was Hewlett packards old employee retreat but they had to sell all the retreats due to potential shareholder lawsuits in the US . I was p*ssed we didnt get it but I was beat by almost a million. 1088 acres 20 minutes to kingston harbour' Plowed rds and electricity This turned into a penis size competition among the kingston business community
LT pins
36284-0243
36290-0303
The buyer then "donated it" to a land trust thereby leaving his actual cost to be below my bid while still having full use ..tricky devil ...I was very impressed by that move
RE Longyear In regards to Revenue Canada and the break down of portfolio , The buyers assign a value in the books for each piece and deal with capital gains accordingly . It just the land reg doesnt require a breakdown
-
wasn't me:)
This should get interesting down to the wire...
-
As usual when something looks too good to be true, it is! The Madoc.ca website has been updated to show that the valuable property has been redeemed - an almost 5,000 square foot home completed in 2008 is not the sort of property that does not get redeemed. PFM1011 was once again called the outcome correctly.
-
It's cases like this that remind me why I should not get religious. I hate redemptions.
Oh well it could be worse. He could have waited until 10 minutes before the bids were called.
I just wonder what would have happened if people did not go up that laneway and in effect tipped him off. >:(
-
. PFM1011 was once again called the outcome correctly.
Me and everyone else....Im just glad he did it now. Tuesday would have been more money on title searches and then money orders courier etc etc . If he had waited till tuesday I would have lost 2 or 3 hours and a hundred or two in expenses just to put in a low ball bid that would have been slaughtered by others on the board
As per people notifying the owner by visiting the land......This is one case where that made no difference whatsoever .there was 10 or 11 people notified by the town, 3 mortgage holders, several owners. the crews that built the house , trent conservation and town employees ... Nothing anyone did was going to make a difference on how this was playing out... If someone did actually get stuck ..they were bloody lucky to get out of there without salt pellets in their ass
-
Have you noticed that the OTS site still does not show it as redeemed? Not even a tweet or twitter ???
And I think on Monday in Canada the banks, municipal office and land registry are closed for family day, just as they are here for President's Day. That makes it incredibly tight, and anyone who buys their searches from OTS would have had to have ordered already with no chance of a refund. I also notice that Mississauga wants 25 bucks per property upfront, and unlike Oakville last time, the make it very clear that in the case of a redemption you can kiss your money good bye.
-
Have you noticed that the OTS site still does not show it as redeemed? Not even a tweet or twitter ???
And I think on Monday in Canada the banks, municipal office and land registry are closed for family day, just as they are here for President's Day. That makes it incredibly tight, and anyone who buys their searches from OTS would have had to have ordered already with no chance of a refund.
Hmm, makes me wonder if this is just slow (OTS usually has the info first and is proud of that fact) or perhaps maybe a bit of self interest at play here. I mean nobody ever orders searches for properties that have redeemed.
My guess, OTS is just slow - what do you guys think?
-
you certainly think OTS are evil...a few years back I ordered a search from them and the property redeemed that morning ..they didnt do the search and didnt charge me..
You certainly see OTS as the devil....never seem to go after tri-target . As linda at tri-target is an ex partner/ex-employee (not sure which) of OTS (the devil).. would she not be by default also evil... sort of vampira or something..just a thought
Has tri-target actually managed to get any taxsales for themselves? I dont recall seeing them in any gazette ads etc http://www.t-taxteam.ca/ (http://www.t-taxteam.ca/)
-
My guess, OTS is just slow - what do you guys think?
It is a long holiday weekend and maybe someone took a vacation.
I think we should count our blessings not our problems. Think of the alternative about Madoc if
G2020 had not caught it in time for us to avoid having a 5 hour round trip drive from Toronto.
For those of you that have to get out in the country and need an excuse; OTS has replaced Madoc with waterfront and waterview tax sale properties that you can drive to in half the time, and no real problems in winter driving other then get your car muddy. You can even see both easily from the road.
If people can just layoff contacting the owner; these certainly pass the smell test of properties that you expect to be up for tax sale, and legitimately look like they may not redeem as long as someone is not stupid.
At least one person may qualify for that overdue beer(s) I owe him. ;D
Of course the die hard city dwellers will have to make do with Mississauga that Rob highlighted for us.
Lets not complain; compared to pre internet life is good but unfortunately much more competitive.
-
you certainly think OTS are evil...a few years back I ordered a search from them and the property redeemed that morning ..they didnt do the search and didnt charge me..
You certainly see OTS as the devil....never seem to go after tri-target . As linda at tri-target is an ex partner/ex-employee (not sure which) of OTS (the devil).. would she not be by default also evil... sort of vampira or something..just a thought
Has tri-target actually managed to get any taxsales for themselves? I dont recall seeing them in any gazette ads etc http://www.t-taxteam.ca/ (http://www.t-taxteam.ca/)
Vampires vs Devils? I never thought of it that way. Pick your poison.
You are right about Tri-Target and I have been far too kind. Maybe because Tri-Target is free and new so is deserving of some latitude. But you're right, there is virtually nothing original about Tri-Target. I think that they have had only one featured (or whatever they call it) property ever.
-
For those of you that have to get out in the country and need an excuse; OTS has replaced Madoc with waterfront and waterview tax sale properties that you can drive to in half the time, and no real problems in winter driving other then get your car muddy. You can even see both easily from the road.
If this doesnt redeem..VERY BIG IF... it will go for way too much..Go to MLS and you can buy a cottage on this water for under 150..so that means this will be bid up to 250 to 300... ;D
-
Vampires vs Devils? I never thought of it that way. Pick your poison.
Here is a suitable poison for a Devil. Too bad no one else on this board likes beer except Netpred or myself.
Netpred:
Care to comment if there is any truth to the rumour that this label is a reasonable likeness of you? (tail and horns excluded) ;D
-
[/quote]
If this doesn't redeem..VERY BIG IF... it will go for way too much..Go to MLS and you can buy a cottage on this water for under 150..so that means this will be bid up to 250 to 300... ;D
[/quote]
I am afraid that pfm1011 is going to call this correctly, just like he did the shack on a minuscule Muskoka lake just over a year ago. Remember all the big bids because it was technically "waterfront"? My theory is that to make a high percentage return on a tax sale you should never bid over $15,000.00. Never!
It takes time. It may take several years, but eventually you could double or triple your money. The big bidders, myself included, may be happy with a 20% return on a large purchase. I would not waste my time and money chasing the impossible dream of getting a waterfront cottage on Rice Lake for less than market value. Dave2 has already looked at it and says it will just get my Mercedes muddy. Putting in a low bid on such a property of such obvious value would be just plain stupid, but just watch how many stupid low ball bids it attracts. A lot of research, a lot of patience after you purchase, and never a bid over 15k is the only way to make a high percentage return anymore. I bought one for 8k a few months ago that I will do very well with, and I stupidly paid over 60k for one that I will lose money on. More than 15k nevermore ;D
-
Did a drive by of the property on Rice lake and it definetly qualifies for a Tax Sale. I did see a person (Camera Guy) taking photos of the property and also entering the cottage. Hopefully this is not the same idiot who got stuck in the Madoc driveway. Lets not be stupid.
Does anybody think there would be any issues with relocating the drainage ditch in the middle of the property? I like g2020s assessment at $15,000.00
-
[quote author=g2020 link=topic=1940.msg8274#msg8274 date=1329772208
I would not waste my time and money chasing the impossible dream of getting a waterfront cottage on Rice Lake for less than market value. Dave2 has already looked at it and says it will just get my Mercedes muddy. Putting in a low bid on such a property of such obvious value would be just plain stupid, but just watch how many stupid low ball bids it attracts. ;D
[/quote]
G2020:
Lets not get too enthusiastic about this yet. After all as PFM once said this is Rice Lake, and normally people who have a Mercedes head for more refined or elegant parts of the province. (BTW was that Mercedes the car or alternatively a member of the opposite sex named Mercedes. You know the type that you find on the cover and in the pages of a magazine that all us sports lovers like at this time of year.) ;D
Rice lake is just fine for people like me who drive a 3 year old GM car made by the best car plant workers in the world; Oshawa, but I am the first to agree it is not a movie star lake.
Like most tax sales this property has some potentially interesting issues associated with it that will take some time to sort out and see if they are apparent or real. If real they may affect the final price quite a bit. Among the things I am concerned about include:
A possible boundary issue with the land to the east (Anytime a property line goes through the middle of the cottage on neighbouring property has been known to keep lawyers happy and employed. I have an email to OTS Jeff about this issue and we need some technical discussions before we can comment on it when he returns from vacation. )
The hydro pole right in the middle of the property where I would normally put a dwelling.
I believe this may be situated in the Oak Ridges morraine, but have to check.
The possible watercourse noted by shineofmine.
Fortunately we have lots of time to check these out if we can restrain people from doing crazy things like contacting the owner.
-
I did see a person (Camera Guy) taking photos of the property and also entering the cottage. Hopefully this is not the same idiot who got stuck in the Madoc driveway. Lets not be stupid.
Nothing like a little break and entering to go with trespassing. That is a douchebag who deserves to be shot I understand the trespassing on a clearly vacant lot to sneak a peak (It is Illegal but we all have done it on vacant land) ..but breaking in ???? Whats next?, find the owner or his next of kin and kill them so they don't redeem, Landmine the property to get the other bidders. Break into town hall the night before the opening and steal all the bids.
In regards to the creek. Probably a very very big hassle as you will have to deal with Quinte conservation and pull a study or too.
Its not like you can just move it and hope no-one complains. To win this you have to beat all the neighbours , who will feel you screwed them and rat you out on everything you try to do.
I think a bigger problem is the septic. I am guessing this just dumps into the lake. It is seasonal. When you knock it down or try to rebuilt ( with the footings ( brick foundation) collapsing and rot I suspect not viable to repair ) or even turn to year round .. you going to run into a septic requirement This is a small low lying lot with the creek in the middle.
It looks to me like a complete knockdown and rebuild on the footprint .Repair and Winterizing will be very expensive on this one . cheaper to start from scratch
Also what is the waterfront like? Rice is very weedy and if you have a pile , turns the cottage to sh*t. Certainly would be better if this was a summer or fall sale so we could get a look at the lake , would get more idiots but I'm sure we will get plenty on this. If it doesn't redeem..I'm calling at least 89 bids. and at 1/3 of them within 10K of min and probably 10 within 3 k of min ( I'm bidding $1127.36 over min to be tricky..I will get this for sure ;D)
-
Rice should be a complete sh$tshow...Lots of waterfront cottages for 200-250
Great for people that enjoy traffic jams on the water and more weeds than the side of a Jamaican hill top.
-
There is a waterfront property for sale privately just down the road from the tax sale on Rice Lake. I called about it, he is asking $500,000.00, it is 200ft of frontage, house, garage, septic, well,and has a boat house at the water. He said it was hard sandy bottom and not to weedy if you maintain it (sounds like Lake Scugog). Anyone who does not win the Tax Sale can pick this one up!!! It might be a bargain in comparison. ;D
-
One VERY serious matter to also consider is Sandy Bay cottages
Just go to the photo gallery and get an idea of how many people are there at any given time
http://www.sandybaycottages.com/gallery_files/2008_data/2008_master.htm
They can have 80 people when full , all non local who can give a sh*t how they behave as they are paying guests ..forget relaxing waterfront. I can assure you these will be neighbours from hell ..and kids will use the park so they will be beside or on your land all the time
-
Pay for a mud bath.. if you have ever been to Bon Echo. Everyone covers themselves in the clay and gives themselves facials..
-
I have said before some of the numbers that have been mentioned for this property don't make sense. Leave aside the issues outlined in Madoc 2 and Madoc 3 threads; remember also the property is occupied. (Madoc 4 anyone)
Back to basics lets look at a realistic value. We can't look at the building but we can consider the land value. Here is a current listing of major riverfront property - 3600 ft (almost a kilometer) ; not contaminated like the Moira from a well known local realtor.
http://www.century21.ca/bob.bancroft/Property/ON/K0K_2K0/TWEED/LINGHAM_LAKE_RD/0
It has cabins and everything. Regular real estate sale. $600 an acre asking price. This is not the only one. And you were going to bid how much for the tax property; with all of the problems? Elk Grove Tile (https://www.elkgrovetile.com/)
I thought it good to get that info out. I'm not interested in purchasing in the area (if anyone does have any info on the large Frontenac piece that just got tax sold they can PM me?I would be interested in hearing about it) but others might.