Ontario Tax Sale Property Forum
Tax Sale Forum => Meetings / Gatherings => Topic started by: Rob on May 26, 2008, 01:37:22 PM
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The forum is intended for all meeting discussions for whatever part of the world you wish to setup a meeting.
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Dave2 et al (See msg from Dave2 below)
I'm on board to meet with you guys, Tues preferable. Yr location Dave2, is it the Williams Pub Cafe 2454 Queen Street East Brampton?
I've researched scores, made 3 unsuccessful bids (one close) and now keep to a distance radius due to time and ever-increasing public awareness making bids often less lucrative . However, I'm not deterred and think a meeting with like-minded folks is a good idea, I'm in Newmarket area.
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Rob et al:
In some private posts some of us have talked about possibly meeting. Want a public place safe and during a time when there are lots of people around about so people do not feel threatened.
I have done before with another group that invests in precious metal stocks with good success.
Some discussion as to merits of pub or coffee shop. Timi's is too load often for a private discussion.
My first guess would be northwest Toronto by the airport. Corner of Airport road and Carlingview. Just up from the northeast corner there is a place which I have often held meetings with several people coming from all over the GTA Called "Williams Coffee Pub" Nonalcoholic but like an upscale coffee (and Tea) shop. (See URL if Rob will let me post:)
http://www.williamscoffeepub.com/content_locations.php?site=1
I myself have to come in from an hour to the east of Toronto but I believe a number of posters are from north and west of Toronto. There is public (TTC) bus service but it will take a while.
Weekday evening say from 7:00 - 9:00 I think is best, after rush hour but before it gets late. Can always be continued on if desired.
Comments ? Interest?
You can send me a private email if you do not want to publically post
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While on the subject of incorporation, etc... do you think if we set up a meeting at some exotic place... that we could then write-off the cost of the trip against any profits, and further reduce our tax liability... ending up with an expensive trip at half the cost. Should we pool our resources and hire a lawyer and an accountant to guide us on this..... ;D
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Rob / Jam / Frank:
First the location I had intended was actually on Dixon (Airport Road)(see listing in Etobicoke). If coming along the 401 from the east take Carlingview Exit just west of 427 exit by Molson Brewery. I believe address is 924 Dixon road.
Just north of Carlingview past the gas station on the east side. You can park at the rear.
This is at the extreme end of the TTC that is why I prefer it over Brampton so Toronto participants can take public transit if they wish.
How about Tuesday June 17 or 18 at 7:00am. What is the preference?
Previous week I am in Sarnia
Frank seeing as you wish an exotic destination for the next meeting after this one I have got you close to the airport so you can get airline info for our next meeting. The following German website may serve as inspiration if Rob will allow me to post it.
http://www.vladi-private-islands.de/islandsforsale.html
On a more serious note I really had felt an informal meet and greet for first meeting. Maybe an exchange of business cards but that is up to the participants. If people wish to be anonymous no problem. Do we want to wear a smiley for ident purposes?
What is preference for day? Any other thoughts for agenda?
Dave2
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I might be in for that on the Tuesday night. The airport area is pretty convenient once the traffic dies down.
I honestly wouldn't expect too many to be taking the TTC. Seems like mostly of a suburban bunch here other than myself, but I drive.
I find that if you want to make a group identifiable, just get someone to bring something noticable and put it on the table like a hat or something.
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Dave2, got the Etobicoke location this time, thanks. That works fine for me as does meeting 17th or 18 June.
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For agenda I would keep it informal with a meet and greet as opposed, for example, to retaining anonymity when chatting at a tax sale. Recent and upcoming tax sales will likely be discussed and it may be evident by end of the evening if and what kind of agenda may be useful for next one.
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Rob et al:
Forum seems to be evenly split between Tuesday and Wednesday Evening:
I will pick Wednesday at 7:00 9:00 pm for June 18. If my feeble memory serves me right at this time of year they may have a patio which I suggest we use. Informal meet and greet style. I will try to get there early and get a couple of tables.
Location:
Williams Coffee Pub:
First the location I had intended was actually on Dixon (Airport Road)(see listing in Etobicoke). If coming along the 401 from the east take Carlingview Exit just west of 427 exit by Molson Brewery. I believe address is 924 Dixon road.
Just north of Carlingview past the gas station on the east side. You can park at the rear.
They do serve a light supper if someone wants it.
Just so everyone recognizes me I am heavy set 6' 1" with graying hair, I have a mustache that my wife has been trying to persuade to get rid of for 30 years. (I keep threatening to grow a beard).
Informal agenda.
For the women who read this forum this is a very public place that should be safe particularly at that time of day. I know sometimes you are worried about safety but I think this group is non threatening.
Proving it is difficult but I thought a true personal story from another site of my best real estate investment ever, which won an award in the US might help.
See you there: One request could people indicate if they might be coming so I can get an idea of group size. (send private email if you wish).
My Best Real Estate Investment was a Rental:
As a Canadian from the great white north sometimes we have a different opinion then our friends in the United States to the south. Lately as I access the internet, blogs, TV shows every one emphasizes the financial return from a real estate investment. Sometimes however, financial considerations are not the only way to measure a real estate investment as illustrated by a true real estate investment that I personally made over 30 years ago. To date this ranks as the best investment (real estate or other) I have ever made and surprisingly it was a rental.
Unlike most modern real estate deals, one had to approach old time deals differently then the popular methods of real estate investment of the last few years. Lately as an older person, I have felt that I am from another planet when it comes to the "in" way to invest with modern real estate.
"0 deposit, 0 down" seems to be the in way to deal real estate in the last few years. For us old guys dealing with a large deposit with serious amounts of our own capital in the investment, seems to be so pass? as the French say. Personally I do not think we have a real estate bubble but a bubble in financing. However as they say, the times seem to be a changing. I wonder what will happen when lending institutions have to manage what they lend rather then pawning it off on some unsuspecting sucker. But I wander, back to my investment.
It happened over 30 years ago, just after I finished graduate school and went to work. At the time I decided to start skiing again. In southern Ontario the nearest ski hills are located 3 hours from Toronto on the southern shores of Georgian bay. Owing to the long drive it made sense to have a place to stay overnight if you wanted to do some serious skiing for the weekend. A friend of mine from undergraduate university found a place located at the top of a ski hill.
Brian was one of those happy go lucky Irish Catholics whose attitude towards life could be best illustrated from a ski trip to Quebec City where we stayed east of Quebec City near the ski hill and a Catholic shrine at Mont St. Anne in Quebec. After a new year's eve which we stayed up until 4.00 am, he woke me up at 6.30 am New Years day. "How would you like to hear the dawn mass at the shrine?" At that point I suddenly remembered the protestant religious background of my ancestors and having most unreligious thoughts turned over and went back to sleep. Brian went to mass and survived the day I know not how.
Unlike most chalets it was located way in the country and was only surrounded by farmhouses. Different from most skiers we skied to the top of the ski hill to begin our day.
The chalet was a former one room school house that a dropout from the 60's had converted into a chalet by adding a second storey. On the ground floor a kitchen was added and the basement was converted into 5 separate bedrooms each with a bunk bed. The owner and his girlfriend occupied the second floor and he rented out the ground floor and basement for the season. You rented it for six months either winter and spring or summer and fall.
For a hippy the owner was no fool. He insisted on full payment of rent money for the season upfront and he wanted to deal with only one person. In real estate terms someone had to take the head lease. The advantage was in theory if you had the down payment you could get the ski chalet for free if you could find enough friends to come in with you.
In the first season my friend and I split it. Having made the investment once the first reward was the right of first refusal for the following season. Unfortunately in the middle of summer my friend got a new job and informed me that he would not be able to go in with me for the coming season.
Decisions, decisions. I thought I was a fool but I decided to take the risk. The next problems was tenants which was fun advertising in pre internet days but somehow I coped and broke even the first year.
The occupancy of the chalet had started to change in the first season I rented it. In real estate terms ?location, location, location'. Being out in the country surrounded by woods and farmfields we had an ideal location for cross country skiing, a sport that was not that popular at that time. But we were one of the only few games in town.
There is one group of people however whom it always was popular - Scandinavians who originally came from Northern European countries - Sweden, Denmark, Norway etc. Slowly but surely the mix of the chalet crowd started to change.
Scandinavians as a race are used to being egalitarian, so we always had a good mix of both men and women.
My paternal grandmother came from a long of highland Scots, and summarized it best to me in a couple of sayings she mentioned to me in preteenager years. "Remember. He who pays the piper calls the tune". So I started to get requests from Nordic blondes including a lot of women, wanting to come up first for one weekend, then another. The place started to be popular and of course everyone had to call me to book a weekend.
Interesting enough we also had a number of Europeans who were working in Canada for a short time period who joined the crowd. I even learned to appreciate key elements of European cuisine like Danish schnapps.
As any bar owner knows it if your place attracts lots of fun loving good looking women and men, you never have a problem in keeping the place full. For some reason some north American males and females other then myself also started to want to "Discover" cross country skiing. By the middle of the second season the finances seemed to take care of themselves. Let us say I was also paying attention to what I will term as "non financial" issues.
By the third season the reputation started to get around and I had no problem in subleasing the chalet for the entire season. While there was always a fair amount of turnover, especially with people who returned to Europe, the crowd started to stabilize to more of a couples scene.
About a 1/3 of the way through the third winter a newcomer called Marjatta from Finland showed up. She was working in Canada only for a short time period but had been born on skis as she had to ski to school every day from the family farm in Finland.
Our chalet was an unexpected pleasant surprise for her and soon she seemed to be up every weekend. Then nature took a hand. We had one of those blizzards that was fierce to say the least. It struck just as we were starting to leave and
it was obvious that we were going nowhere soon. We were isolated in the chalet with lots of wine, food and wood for the fireplace. Both the hydro and telephone service stayed on. Oh darn we were marooned.
So we settled in for a nice warm night. What happened?
The Beachboys had a line from a song they composed called California Girls that applied. "and the Northern Girls keep their boyfriends warm at night".
The next morning I hard one of the more enjoyable phone calls of my life to my boss to explain that we were snowed in and would not be able to get out soon as all the roads were blocked. The snow however was great for skiing and we enjoyed ourselves while we waited for the snowplow.
The roads were maintained by roadgrader plows and I still remember vividly the plough trying to get through the drifts that were higher then the roadgrader. The plow would go back a 100 yards, hit the accelerator to build up speed with a cloud of black smoke and then accelerate. At full speed it would hit a drift and come to a stop after a short distance. It took the plough all day to punch through the drifts.
I never did try to make a financial fortune on my investment. Some things are beyond price. Four marriages come out of that chalet including my own. Last week as this story is being written, I celebrated my 30th year of marriage with that little blonde from Finland.
I have always been a bit of a dreamer and it is perfectly balanced by the-feet-on-the-ground-practical approach of my wife. It all started when I made a real estate investment decision to take the head lease on a ski chalet.
I just hope I get to enjoy her company beside me when in our last real estate decision on this planet, we are laid to rest 6 feet underground.
Dave and Marjatta
Dave2
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Count me in on wednesday night. I hope I will not forget. I work at Rexdale Blvd. from 11pm to 7am. Anyways, I already put it in my datebook. I will wear my leather hat. (cowboy without a horse from the far east)
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I'm in for June 18th.
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I'm also in for coming Weds.
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Initial Meeting Report:
Small but certainly interesting. Nice to finally put a face to some of the names. Missed a few that had promised to come. Hope they didn't come and couldn't find us as patio was closed because of rain.
Think we should do it again in the fall. Location seems to be fine.
Longterm I personally hope to get to know people enough to look at syndication potential but that is a way off.
Dave2
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My apology. I did not forget but something came up at work on Wednesday morning that I have to stay for overtime until 12noon. I have to sleep enough to work again at 11pm. I'm hoping I could make it next time.
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Thats a lovely story Dave 2, congratulations to you and your wife. Graduate school? What do you have your Master's in and where in the 'great white north are you from'?
Sasha
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Sasha:
The post originally was for a US real estate investment forum a couple of years ago which it won a prize for best investment experience. The great white north refers to Canada. My masters is from Western in Business.
One of the items we discussed at the meeting was my experience in finding a coffin during an inspection of a real estate property that I purchased (non tax sale). At the meeting I was asked if I would reproduce it. Here is the (true) story if Rob doesn't object.
Be interested if anyone else has found something unique during an inspection. Enjoy:
The Inspection - A True Real Estate Story for Halloween.
It started off as a normal real estate investment opportunity. It was a commercial property in the country. It was along a main highway in eastern Ontario with a couple of acres of land. Additionally there was a rather old farm house that came with the property that dated from the time the property was originally settled.
We were informed of the opportunity by an alert real estate agent with whom we had occasional dealings. The agent had an exclusive listing on the property that had been originally sold to another investor. The other investor had done all of the normal purchase and sale work and had a signed conditional deal. The two conditions were financing; and subject to inspection.
Unfortunately for the agent the other investor had over extended himself and was unable to get financing. Thus the unlucky agent faced the prospect that the deal would fall through after his work. Like all good agents; however, he lived by the old philosophy; 'When the going gets tough, the tough get going," and he went out and found another buyer.
The terms were fair, there was a good tenant who was willing to sign a lease, and even the financials looked okay. (A 10 cap, after allowing for repairs, for the professionals). The property itself even had long term capital gains potential. It was located in a rural township, but right on the commercial outskirts of a growing town that was expanding toward the rural border. Several big box stores were coming in on that side of town and it was obvious that this was the side to be in. Income, capital gain potential and a good commercial tenant what more could an investor want.
The only facts we could not verify quickly were the residential tenants of the farm house. We were told that they traveled a lot, and usually slept during the day. Apparently they were usually around only after dark. A general comment was also made that they were a rather strange bunch. That should have given us a warning us of what was to come.
The previous purchaser had negotiated well. It was obvious that some maintenance had been deferred but that was to be expected. The owner who had retired was getting on in years and had moved several thousand miles away to warmer climates. I am sure that is why we were able to get the purchase price we did. The purchase price and 10 cap expected return was after the previous purchaser's expected allowance for repairs.
Being old fashioned conservative can work for you. We just get our pound of flesh in a different way. The advantage is that the real estate community knows you have the horsepower to move when it is necessary. When you put down a third of your own equity into the property, you can get your financing okay fast and by phone. This was one of those cases where a quick phone call resulted in a fast yes.
We had to move quickly but a premade deal doesn't come along very often. So we said yes, signed the paperwork and laid down our deposit and ended up with a conditional purchase.
For the seller we give a sweetener to seal the deal by removing the financing condition and give an increased large down payment.
I have a philosophy that money talks in real estate deals. Thus if I want a property, I often use a large deposit payment as a signal to the seller that we are serious.
In the overheated market of recent years its things like this that may make all the difference.
Now all that remained was the inspection. In buying country property I find sellers are funny when it comes to inspection. They sometimes seem to take offense to the fact that you want to carefully look at the property. I have had sellers walk away from a signed and agreed commercial deal because they refused to allow a proper inspection. They insisted that the property was sold "As is as is". I walked. If I want to bet on the gambling table I will go to Las Vegas.
To inspect country property you often have to use different resources. In a case like the one the property was on well water and septic so the above ground inspection is performed separately from the below ground. Little did we expect what we would face coming from below the ground in this case?
For the below ground I often want to do the inspection before I bid. I find the inspection cost is very modest compared to what you may find particularly if the septic system has to be lifted and replaced. It often is classified as contaminated waste and we all know what the cost of handling this is. This leads to the funny request of a seller, that I offer to pump out his septic system for free, even before an offer is on the table.
I know most purchasers would not be caught dead with a septic pump out truck operator. My advice is swallow your pride. My paternal grandmother came from a long line of highland Scots. They have a saying that applies," He who pays the piper, calls the tune".
In the case at hand we decided to do the building inspection first. I use a specialist who can inspect both commercial and residential property. Our problem was the farmhouse. We were unable to contact the tenants, so in accordance with local law and practice we posted a notice on the door, waited 24 hours, and arrived for the inspection.
We did the commercial building first. Normal concerns; some roof work was needed but after 20 years with a tar and pea gravel built up roof, we had expected it and priced it in. A couple of plate glass windows were fogged but again already budgeted for.
Finally after a coffee break we went to the farm house. We knocked on the rear door which opened onto the kitchen. We got no response, and using the key supplied by the owner we went into the kitchen. Let us say we were surprised with the paint scheme.
We next proceeded to the main bathroom. Stranger and stranger. I have been in a lot of bathrooms over the year but this is the first one I have seen painted "BLACK". Even the bathtub was tiled black. If I ever had to replace the tenants I knew where I would advertise for a new tenant. A goth would love the place.
At this point my inspector wanted to go to the basement. He had some concerns about the wiring and wanted to look at the electrical panel. He was right; knob and tube wiring which is a major concern as most insurers will not insure it. This was one factor we had not allowed for in our pricing as it is only possible to see during an inspection. Replacing the wiring in a house is expensive. I had a contingency fund for unexpected expenses but this would exhaust it.
While in the basement we decided to inspect the rest of the basement for leaks. The basement was old and musty. Everything was covered with cobwebs. While my inspector concentrated on the furnace, I looked over the rest of the basement. Over in a corner I saw it. Like all things you do not expect at first I did not believe my own eyes.
I called my inspector over. In thirty years in the inspection business he had never seen anything like it. "A coffin!!!!" It being daylight of course as was to be expected, it was closed.
In recounting the incident to my lawyer later, I asked him for a professional legal opinion. "Was the coffin a chattel or a fixture?" He replied that he considered it a fixture because it was unbolted to the floor, but that he understood that the rules may be different in Transylvania.
Normally we do the property management for our own buildings. In talking to the real estate agent who was enquiring how the inspection went, I asked if he knew of a building management company that worked after dark.
We never did buy that property. In a later inspection of the septic bed the nice row of cedars turned out to be growing right over the septic system. There were a couple of other issues that we decided were too expensive to fix for the price. The owner unfortunately would not budge.
Was the coffin occupied? Only two people know for sure; myself and the inspector. Was it part of the act of the two so called 'musicians' who were the supposed tenants? Or was there a more sinister secret.
Come to think of it though not long afterwards, my wife of 30 years started to complain, that she was having difficulty sleeping during the times when the moon was full.
Dave2