OTS Tax Sale Lead Times, Pigs, and Pig Peeves

[26.2]

Actionable? Everyone should feel welcome to share an experience or story.  You may not agree with each person's assessment of the facts they understand but trying to silence them is dangerous and not acceptable.

Or we will have to go back to pig speak.  Who wants that??  Actually I think I was getting the hang of it.
Stick around g2020.  This discourse regarding the g-men is good way to keep things honest. I don't like it when you hear family of staff are bidding.  I wonder if the fix is in.  As far as OTS is concerned, I have had a lot of dealings with them and they have always been very professional and helpful, however I usually avoid featured properties because they make it too easy and that creates too much attention.

[Pfm1011]

The comments against OTS are improper and highly irresponsible and many would say actionable

Actionable?  Highly irresponsible? 

Businesses have fans and distractors.  The very nature of the way a business is run could cause instant like or dislike. Threats of legal action is not a very bright imagine to shine on a business and I don't think OTS would appreciate being associated with those comments.

Everyone should feel welcome to share an experience or story.  You may not agree with each person's assessment of the facts they understand but trying to silence them is dangerous and not acceptable.

. without someone posting me a copy of the OTS search I cannot comment further about their complicity in this whole smell mess.

 Not so! I am suspicious enough to suggest that you never buy a search from Ontario Tax

These are not simple like or dislike comments

People reading this would automatically think they are crooked. Add to it young Susan's..oops G2020 claim to be the biggest tax sale expert in Ontario and now claim to be an engineer and it now has a ring of credibility.  Anyone accused cant defend as they risk a war of words..not with "someone who buys ink by the barrel"  but with someone who can claim what they want, can claim to be anyone and gets the "ink for free".

Sorry Rob but hiding behind fake names on the net make allegations to easy to make. No one would dare publish something like that in a newspaper but the net..go wild no name , no face . claim what you want and it considered a valid source

This is not a review saying ..they were slow and I didn't like their product..This says they were involved in a scam in which maps were stolen, townships were committing fraud, plans were changed in order for parties unknown to steal land..So now not only do we have a paranoid conspiracy..we are naming the conspirators.

We now allege that OTS conspired  with a known town councilor, the known  treasurer , several unknown staff and unknown outside parties  to defraud G2020 out of the land at pigeon lake..Two minor problems..the taxpayer paid the bill..(not much of a surprise)  and G2020 wasn't the the first or second bid so even if the taxpayer didn't pay..not in the running.

We now have now named  two treasurers and  a councilor personally  ( yes they are personally identifiable ) and company principals as fraud artists..may be slightly "irresponsible" don't you think?  Check your logs and you are looking at over 1000 people reading those allegations. Couple days from now if any searches google for them trying to decide whether to buy a subscription..they run into a "huge professional tax seller and engineer alleging fraud" and run away.

This sort of BS makes openings a nightmare as every loser will claim fraud and conspiracy. " I read about the Bobcaygeon scam..or winchester when millions were scammed, we all know it goes on and the treasurers are scammers..here we go again"   And of course its always the 6th and 10th or 20th  place people that bitch and complain about the fraud..

I understand Bobcaygeon had someone running around screaming treasurer fraud and conspiracy and apparently Adjala was supposed to be a silly mess.

I don't know about you , but the last thing I want when I win is a paranoid idiot in my face accusing me of conspiring with the treasurer and committing fraud. Would like a "well bought" not a "scumbag scammer, you robbed me".

When I talk to a treasurer  or planner prior to a sale, I want them to consider us as professional ( we are vultures but professional vultures) not paranoid lunatics who will go psycho if we lose.

OTS's expansion attempt and advertising clearly run against our interest.  The more they succeed , means more competition to us but it doesn't give someone the right to make allegations against them with possible motives of removing the competition they create or even no motive ..just paranoid babbling convincing themselves that the reason they lost is not that they bid low , or a taxpayer redeemed but because there is a giant conspiracy out there and its impossible to succeed against such odds.



( told you I would rant yet again)

[netpred]

Sorry Rob but hiding behind fake names on the net make allegations to easy to make. No one would dare publish something like that in a newspaper but the net..go wild no name , no face . claim what you want and it considered a valid source

Agreed. It is easy to post anything anonymously. It is another thing to use your real name.

I also tend to agree (mostly) with the rest of your well-written rant.

[Dave2]

Normally I agree with PFM but for my particular circumstances I would argue that OTS is on balance a positive thing for me. Note I used the singular me; that may not be true of all board members.

First on the other concern I think while it may happen I believe it is a relatively rare event.  I have lost far more bids or potential bids either to competition or to people who disclosed information that resulted in a redemption.  Furthermore with the greater transparency that exists today; my belief it probably happens less today then yesterday.
I have using this type of service for years. long before even OTS appeared on the scene.  My problem was that I lacked the discipline to visit the Ontario gazette on a regular basis.   (OTS does have competitors).  
If we look at tax sale postings in general both by municipalities and by OTS there are two types.   Those with good information and those with limited information.  Certainly OTS while not perfect raises the bar
on the quality of information that is available.  While there are some municipalities that also give good information (E.g. Trent Hills) there is a whole lot of others where that is not true. OTS has certainly helped to raise the bar. The concern in some quarters seems to be that OTS is providing that information and maybe helping the masses better compete.

Ladies and gentlemen we can't have it both ways.  I can also remember a series of posts in which everyone bitched because a municipality north of muskoka did not provide a lot of information and as a result the good one got away without anyone knowing about it.  

Fundamentally my biggest problem is limited time.  Thus I find OTS useful as a screening device to save time.  I have two or three tax sale profiles I am potentially interested in.      I use the OTS information to quickly get rid of the ones I am not interested in and to allow me to focus into the ones I am.  

What I really want from OTS is a programe that will tell me what other people will bid.

[ErnestBidder]

  Thought I'd chime in on the "lost/stolen/misplaced" maps/deeds/R-plans: I worked as a land surveyor's title searcher for a few years, and, even though signs are posted as to the enormous fines for removing documents from the Registry office, I've seen the following:

 long-time title-searchers closing their briefcase, at the end of the day, on 40 or 50 deeds, a couple dozen R-plans & M-plans, etc, because they were "not coming in tomorrow", or were going to "work over the weekend";

 a member of the public pocketing the registry copy of "his" deed, because he didn't want to pay for another copy, or bother his lawyer, and "his" R-plan, because he paid for it in the first place, even though the plans are all stamped as property of the Registry office; and:

 title searchers, both local and visiting, stuffing deeds R- and M-plans all into the first handy Registry plan folder, 'cause they were "in a hurry", and yet, when next they cannot find the documents they need, bitching continuously about other people not replacing items where they belong.

  Stupidity reigns supreme. Yet, this is not to say that the events, as g2020 relates them, are not partially or wholly true. I once had a municipal official disclose information I had to give him, to his "best buddy" RE agent; it cost me a $1.1 million listing, and it cost the other agent the price of a bottle to parch his alcoholic buddy's thirst.

  I hope g2020 sticks around; if nothing else, over 40 years, a lot of hilarious stories must have piled up, and the "Susan's Surveyor's Transit" is priceless! Dave2 has had some good ones, and my friends laughed at my low bid because someone (the winning bidder, I   would think) removed the rural road sign, which prevented me from finding the lot. (I must say, at this point, that my intended bid would have been top bid). I hope we hear from more "old-timers", they will have a rich history to relate to we "newbies".

  I think it's wise to hang on to a good chunk of suspicion (or paranoia) because, from time to time, there ARE dark deeds afoot, and I've seen a few. I don't blame g2020 for posting anonymously, but I think you have to take EVERYTHING on this forum with a large grain of salt, and it is sometimes impossible to get the hard info you need to expose the truth as you know it. Sometimes you get the facts, and find you were slightly wrong, as witnessed by Dave2's feeling that the winning bidder got more that the 14 day limit allowed. We've all had suspicions about any number of things, in our own lives, that did not go as we thought they should, and we have all harboured niggling thoughts about what might have happened, but, when there are millions of dollars involved, those thoughts tend to get darker, and sharper, and keep us awake at night, wondering on how we can prove or disprove our suspicions.

  I'm glad I don't bid on the really big ones (yet).

[g2020]

Notice that PFM gets particularly riled at the thought of any title search business being moved away from OTS. Makes you wonder? My experience makes me risk averse when it comes to Tax Sales and you should be too, at least until you have bought and sold something. I stand by my advice to use your own solicitor for your title search never OTS. Later some of you may be able to just pay your $8.00 and do it yourself as obviously many of you do based on the activity that I see in the Land Registry Offices. Your solicitor can not only give you the necessary facts to make a well informed bid but he/she can also advise you with respect to the need for, and availability of, title insurance. I only recently learned about title insurance from a realtor who had the winning bid on a house that I had tendered. This realtor used his lawyer to do the title search and then consequently got title insurance when his lawyer closed the purchase. You can only look at a tax sale property from the road until it actually closes - please notice that the OTS photos are taken from the road. In this instance the foundation was cracked and falling into the house, probably due to frost heaving. The title insurance company paid for a new foundation since this was a latent defect that could not be discovered until after closing. Your lawyer will know which insurer to use and can call their rep to see just what can be covered and the cost involved. No! Title insurance is not just for buildings and is equally important, albeit cheaper, for raw land. The last 2 years have probably been the best that I have ever seen for tax sale bargains even if PFM got nothing. It's over. You will now be paying about 80% of net realizable market value so you really need to exercise all the caution that a prudent buyer would exercise on an MLS purchase. Consider the 20% discount a premium for cash and a quick closing. Yes, of course there will always be a few bargains where you can make 10 times your money but they will be on the lower priced properties that PFM would turn his snout up at - and probably in the winter. Good bye.    

[netpred]

This is not intended to be legal advice so I will only say that anyone relying on the previous post should check with a lawyer to confirm whether title insurance pays for defects to the structure or defects to title (or both).

[twinn1]

since everybody else is weighing in on the discussion I thought I would put in my thoughts.

OTS is a good resources that makes it easy for people to get information with a few strokes of a keyboard.  OTS is an agent for the city or region that is posting the tax sale.  It is in their best interest to sell the property for maximum value and by increasing the advertising lead time, they will fullfill their mandate.  This makes it bad for us "vultures" but good for the municpality.   OTS works for the city that is listing the tax sale, not us.  Yes they do make money from us by selling title searches, but without the inital conract from the city, they have no net profits.

I would make an informed guess that g2020 is correct in his/her assumption that money to be made is from recovering the excess sale procedings to the original land owner.  The city keeps the additional funds ontop of the minimum bid if the original owner does not claim within one year.  I would also guess that someone who has not paid taxes in many years does not have the required legal understanding knowing that they can be reimbursed as the city does not have an obligation to inform the owner of that right.  By receiving top dollar for the property, the city itself has a very good chance of keeping the excess and that is were the value of OTS comes in to the city.

However, just because OTS are the agent of the city, it does not give them any more right to go on too the property as any of us have, it is still private property and they are limited by what they can provide (ie. pictures from the road etc..).  It is a resource for us but anybody that relies on them as their sole soruce of due diligance is not doing enough homework in my opinon.

As for people being unethical, its just a part of the business.  The locals always have the advantage in tax sales, because they know the story, zoning reg's etc...  PMF1011 has teranet, that puts him at a huge advantage oversome who does'nt have that software, he is paying for information.  Lucky for us that he shares a lot of the info regarding the 'bad' properties saving us time and trouble.   This is a business and you have to pay to play.


From my limited experience in tax sales, I have seen people remove street/concession signs.  I have noticed R-plans, and maps disappear etc..

the worst of I have seen is someone (the winning bidder) tell me to get off his property , threaten to call the police on me for trepassing, as he put up a for sale sign on the land the phone # on the sign  was a automatic voicemall number that you can get for $20/month. I went to the registry office to look at the plans/deeds etc... and I refiled them correctly.  One weel later I went back after he told me to get off his property and the plans were "missing".  Gee, I wonder were they went.  I went to the opening and he was the winning bidder.

I lost that bid but this unethical person won, 90% of the people probely thought the land was going to be redeemed but it was just a ploy by another bidder.  From my understanding, he was a local adjoining land owner as the city staff knew him and were congratulating him on increasing his lot size.  I have never seen him bid again but I stopped attending openings a while ago.
There are no bounds as to what level people will stoop to to make a few $.  

[Jayz]

I don't think OTS is a city agent but rather an advertiser to provide "free" advertising to the city for this particular matter. By providing value added info and services such as title search, it makes money from people like you and me. The more traffic it generates more likely cities will grant their tax sale packages to OTS to advertise on its website to attract more people to purchase relevant services it provides. (Some cities may not favor that idea to have many people's attention for their taxsales for some reasons, for one as PFM mentioned if too many people calling to check status they will get annoyed). (With city like Greater Sudbury who provides very detailed info on its website for its taxsale, you wouldn't need to go to OTS for further unless you wanna purchase title searches there).

I think people like Rob (this website), PFM, Frank and other gurus out there can be OTS's competitors by providing the same type of services too - as long as they are in it and can get volume (and don't provide false info to their own benefit for obvious "conflict of interest" reason  ).

[twinn1]

I agree that OTC is not always a agent of the city, but for their feautured properties they do act on behalf of the city.  I am sure that they must get some sort of compensation for their trouble in marketing and managing the sale, I have no idea how that works and weither its a percentage of sale price or a flat fee.

They do offer title searchs on other property that they do not have sole rights to market.  And i'm sure that it accounts for a fair bit of revenue.  Yes there are other sites that offer title searchs, but I think that OTS as the niche market of relating stickly to tax sales.  Actually its a great business plan as it offers a service to a very small market, within which there is almost no competition.

Either way they are in the profit of making money and offer a service that is fair and reasonable.  However, I would assume that the majority of their information is provided by the city they are marketing on behalf of, so back to g2020's point, if the city offers bad information or misinformation or lack of information, OTS will forward that on to its perspective client.  They are not in a posistion to fact check every detail--thats our job as perspective buyers.

[Frank]

As for people being unethical, its just a part of the business.  The locals always have the advantage in tax sales, because they know the story, zoning reg's etc...  PMF1011 has teranet, that puts him at a huge advantage oversome who does'nt have that software, he is paying for information.  Lucky for us that he shares a lot of the info regarding the 'bad' properties saving us time and trouble.  Frank is a R/E agent, he also has access to information that most of us lay people do not.  This is a business and you have to pay to play.

Correction....at one point in a past post, I may have referred to real estate agents, and that I have done some work in RE offices.  However, I don't  believe I ever said that I was an agent....that would be a gross mis-representation. 

[Pfm1011]

notice that the OTS photos are taken from the road. In this instance the foundation was cracked and falling into the house, probably due to frost heaving. The title insurance company paid for a new foundation since this was a latent defect that could not be discovered until after closing.

I definately would check that..First Canadian Title... No one is paying for cracked foundations on a house and title insurance on a tax sale house is absolutely assinine.

The last 2 years have probably been the best that I have ever seen for tax sale bargains even if PFM got nothing. It's over. You will now be paying about 80% of net realizable market

There has been some good bargains the last two years..I got a one or two ..however I have no idea where this "end of deals" comes from. there is still "deals o plenty" I  am sure....well that is of course if the evil corrupt treasurers and their co-conspiritors dont steal them first

Oh Wait ..lurkers..  You are correct..no more deals to be made , go to Power of sales and sheriff sales..nothing to see here ..move along

and the "Susan's Surveyor's Transit" is priceless

If it is true, "young Susan" should hide her head in shame as Dave2 walked away with that island dirt cheap and he didnt know there was a cottage. I sure as hell wouldnt brag about driving 6 hours , discovering a gold mine then losing a bid to someone who paid less the 20 cents on the dollar and had no clue about the cottage...oh wait unless the treasurer tipped Dave2 off

Normally I agree with PFM but for my particular circumstances I would argue that OTS is on balance a positive thing for me. Note I used the singular me; that may not be true of all board members.

Lets face it , Im like the tourist who discovers a nice spot then complains when other tourists find it. They are positive but there will be an onslaught of low bids and even worse..megahigh bids

[Dave2]

Unlike the smarter people on this board I have placed second a "H--l" of a lot more times then I have won one.  My overall batting average well lets say; forget the major leagues I am well below the minors; maybe I might qualify for T-ball level.   

In this business all you can hope to do is keep trying, and trying and trying.   No body seems to favour me.  Of course my baby bird bidding strategy "Cheap, Cheap, Cheap"  may have something to do with it.   

The only reason I seem to win anything at all is that I am bidding so far up north that normal smart people can't find the place.   That is why in spots like Moonbeam they use a flying saucer to get to work. If you look at some of my posts you will see reference to terms like 'moose pasture'.  Fortunately for me I have not had a moose as a competitor yet. 

My biggest problem now is that the moose figure they know a sucker when they see it.  So someone has listed a property right next to one I bought at a tax sale on MLS at not an unrealistic price so if I am serious about this crazy idea of mine I should buy it to start a serious land assembly.

I still haven't thought of a way I can justify it to my significant other without ending up suffering an out of body experience.

[ErnestBidder]

 Pfm, it seems to me that g2020 is talking about an island similar to Dave2's win, but I could be wrong; perhaps g2020 will throw some light on the matter.

[Rob]

I think people like Rob (this website), PFM, Frank and other gurus out there can be OTS's competitors by providing the same type of services too - as long as they are in it and can get volume (and don't provide false info to their own benefit for obvious "conflict of interest" reason  ).

Actually in many ways we are all partners.  If someone new to the tax sale process finds this site, chances are if they are interested in the process they will find OTS site and vice versa.  The more entities servicing the tax sale property community, and the more rich the environment.  I'm personally not going out and taking pictures of property sites of entire city listings, I wouldn't have the time or the interest so I think it's great a local business has decided to offer that information. 


Is it just me or are islands one of the hardest to win at any tax sale?  Bids are usually way above market.  But owning an island is everyone's dream, I'm not surprised their is such contemptuous feels.