Marmora Properties

[Dave2]

In this case Dave was willing to withdraw his bid, not really caring if he got the property or not. This provided an easy way out for the Twp., they could simply reject his bid on the basis of being on the wrong form, without objection. However, I agree, Dave could have screamed that he was the winning bid, and perhaps the Twp would have to agree.

As a general observation I have never seen a lawyer move so fast in my life.  The township lawyer was there 10 minutes after the bids closed and we were into face to face negotiations within a half an hour.  

The fundamental problem I faced was "lets call a spade a spade" my own stupidity.  I did not expect that the township would make an honest error in collating the documents and I hope some members of this board learn from my mistake.  (CHECK YOUR DOCUMENTS CAREFULLY).  Waltersland says he has been involved in hundreds of tax sale bids and never seen this problem before and because of something else he said I believe him and his experience.  

The reasons I did not scream in public were the following:

a) To play with a legal lawsuit I believe I would have to come up with all the money on the bid not just the deposit.  Not having local knowledge  I was not interested in property 2 which is a great piece of property for poison ivy and has a difficult construction terrain. Having stupidly signed the bid document I felt my risks of winning property 2 were greater then winning the property I wanted.

b) I also followed a unique philosophy I have when I am in a potential hole.  This is when you are in a hole the first rule is to "stop digging". I did not feel that I wanted to put additional funds at risk to prove a point without profit.

c) The key issue here is the potential upside and maybe I should defer to someone who I understand is the winner about what I may have lost if he is willing to go public..  My belief for an interior lot I was looking at a market value arguably at best in excess of $24,000. Assessed value was less then half that. In this specific case I did not believe it was worth the extra costs and risk for this updside.  On other properties I would played it very different.  

d) For a legal fight I am looking at a cost of probably at least $10,000 plus and maybe a lot more against an organization that is tax payer funded.  Everyone thinks the township is the only player in this one. I disagree.  What about the other bidders?

e) Finally there a couple of things that are known only to the principals.  Lets use the hockey trade term "future considerations"  

[26.2]

As for the deposit strategy, I usually do the same, pick my max bid and then get a deposit to match; then decide later on my bid amount. However, I almost always then bid my maximum, so I guess, what is the point of that strategy. Besides, if you have a deposit greater than 20%, you will lose out if you decide to 'sell' your bid to the higher tenderer (where there is a big spread), or if you are high and decide to walk and 'buy' the second bid. So, I say to all bidders, never deposit more than 20%.

Wow.  Are bids traded often?  For example the person who won the Powassan bid for 55,000 could buy [should have bought] the second bid 22,266 for the cost of his deposit and then some for the bother.  Is the township OK with these transactions?

[Pfm1011]

Wow.  Are bids traded often?  For example the person who won the Powassan bid for 55,000 could buy [should have bought] the second bid 22,266 for the cost of his deposit and then some for the bother.  Is the township OK with these transactions?

The towns get to keep the initial deposit that is forfeit but lose in the year. The towns don't like the potential for hassles as there is a possibility of problems if the second  screws the first  ( which they should do to teach them a lesson) Additionally the process turns to a joke if you let morons bid super high without having to actually pay ....so towns don't like it.

The big problem is that you are rewarding the overbidder and removing any risk he has..IE if he knows you will whore out your position, why would he not simply make insanely high bids everytime to ensure he wins ..then simply buy the second position .

Sort of like taking a fifty from  a rapist afterwards ...now you are just a whore

If you whore yourself out and sell your second position..get used to it as you will always be second .  As far as I am concerned make the high  bidder pay the price..he/she  just outbid you by a large amount..let him lose the money and that will get him out of the taxgame..If you let him keep his money  he will use it to beat you on the next piece.

People complain about high prices now. start selling your second positions and we might as well go full retail..

He/she  has screwed you out of land by bidding high..make them pay the price..get them out of the tax game..

This is war and you are simply giving back the bullets they used to beat you with  so they can reuse them at the next battle

(Im sure Sun Tzu said something about this ..Oh yes here it is..The Art of War   Section III rule 21 .Sun Tzu said ..when engaging the enemy..dont be a idiot and give him back his bullets for then you shall be both stupid and a whore and all future battles shall be lost..)


If they winner realizes that they overbid they may walk..as a second in this matter you are in a better position to buy them out of first ...If you think its worth it.offer to buy out their deposit if they walk..so in Powasson . the second could have offered the first 11k to walk and had the land for 33.. Always   Remember the wife factor..the winner has a wife screaming that "you just paid more then double what anyone else offered"..thats severe pressure as it never goes away. Even if you sell the land for 100 K the wife will still rag about you only made 45 , not 75

No matter what land I bought..I might  be looking for an exit if I more then doubled the next closest bid as I clearly have overpaid and the gun is now pointed at my head . I would be looking to get out for little more then a steak dinner and a beer unless I was a end user or very  very sure of its true value.  

All that said ..I did GIVE the people my second once. They were adjacent owners and a nice couple..They bid almost market and were not pro-vultures like us . They just wanted a bigger lot for themselves. I had been chatting with them at the opening and after they  won ,I approached them and  explained how it worked. I GAVE ( yes GAVE) them my bid  and it saved them about 30K but cost me nothing.

[waltersland]

To Pfm1011; That log house will be megabucks, that's all I can say, but it certainly shows faith in the subdivision. As for bid selling, read on:

To`Dave2; I think you did the most reasonable thing, fighting for your lot may not have been worth the aggravation. In this case, youy would not have got 'my' lot because I wouldn't have let it happen. I would have argued for disqualification based on being in the wrong envelope, and that would almost certainly stick. But for an initial minute there, Dave2, I thought I was going to be selling my bid to you.

To 26.2: Yes, yes and yes. Bids are traded by those who are aware of, and comfortable with the strategy. However, there is no reason not to be comfortable with it. I have never encountered resistance from a municipality. The municipalities do like it, they get to keep the high deposit. I have made lots of $$ coming in a distant second, and selling my bid to the high. I have also bought the second bid where I've found myself way overbidding. The formula is always the same, the sale price is half the money on the table, i.e. half of the first bid minus the second bid less the first deposit. That is why under the rules, there are only two bidders of status, otherwise this bid selling thing could cascade all the way down the line to the lowest bidder, with the original land owner getting only the lowest bid value and the municipality being the big winner. I often do the bid sell/trade in front of the clerk or treasurer, advising them in advance of the transaction that 'I'm going to make them some money'. Recall that the name on the form is anything you want, sufficient to identify the bid as yours. I know bidders that have used their cat and dog's name, just for anonymity. The first and second bidders might well have been a bidding team right from the outset, or even one in the same person, what does it matter? This is a little built-in tax sale perk that encourages high bids, benefiting the original owners overall, and also yields a bit of cash for municipalities now and then. So, to all you bidders out there, I also urge you to include your telephone number under your name. You might be hearing from me in an upcoming sale. Or I might hear from you.

[markymark]

Wow.  Are bids traded often?  For example the person who won the Powassan bid for 55,000 could buy [should have bought] the second bid 22,266 for the cost of his deposit and then some for the bother.  Is the township OK with these transactions?

The towns get to keep the initial deposit that is forfeit but lose in the year. The towns don't like the potential for hassles as there is a possibility of problems if the second  screws the first  ( which they should do to teach them a lesson) Additionally the process turns to a joke if you let morons bid super high without having to actually pay ....so towns don't like it.

The big problem is that you are rewarding the overbidder and removing any risk he has..IE if he knows you will whore out your position, why would he not simply make insanely high bids everytime to ensure he wins ..then simply buy the second position .

Sort of like taking a fifty from  a rapist afterwards ...now you are just a whore

If you whore yourself out and sell your second position..get used to it as you will always be second .  As far as I am concerned make the high  bidder pay the price..he/she  just outbid you by a large amount..let him lose the money and that will get him out of the taxgame..If you let him keep his money  he will use it to beat you on the next piece.

People complain about high prices now. start selling your second positions and we might as well go full retail..

He/she  has screwed you out of land by bidding high..make them pay the price..get them out of the tax game..

This is war and you are simply giving back the bullets they used to beat you with  so they can reuse them at the next battle

(Im sure Sun Tzu said something about this ..Oh yes here it is..The Art of War   Section III rule 21 .Sun Tzu said ..when engaging the enemy..dont be a idiot and give him back his bullets for then you shall be both stupid and a whore and all future battles shall be lost..)


If they winner realizes that they overbid they may walk..as a second in this matter you are in a better position to buy them out of first ...If you think its worth it.offer to buy out their deposit if they walk..so in Powasson . the second could have offered the first 11k to walk and had the land for 33.. Always   Remember the wife factor..the winner has a wife screaming that "you just paid more then double what anyone else offered"..thats severe pressure as it never goes away. Even if you sell the land for 100 K the wife will still rag about you only made 45 , not 75

No matter what land I bought..I might  be looking for an exit if I more then doubled the next closest bid as I clearly have overpaid and the gun is now pointed at my head . I would be looking to get out for little more then a steak dinner and a beer unless I was a end user or very  very sure of its true value.  

All that said ..I did GIVE the people my second once. They were adjacent owners and a nice couple..They bid almost market and were not pro-vultures like us . They just wanted a bigger lot for themselves. I had been chatting with them at the opening and after they  won ,I approached them and  explained how it worked. I GAVE ( yes GAVE) them my bid  and it saved them about 30K but cost me nothing.

Well explained,and to add Don't over bid by greed or mistake as it may burn you.1 Karma to you.