Need Lawyer to Close??

[MELRAY]

I was the successful bidder at a recent tax sale. After the openings I had the opportunity to speak with the Town's lawyer, who informs me that I would require an attorney in order to close and have the sale registered. He seemed unsure of this.

I didn't think a lawyer was necessary and the registration was the responsibility of the Town....any insights?

[Frank]

You dont' need a lawyer, get one if you feel you must.

All you need to do is come up with the balance of the money on your bid, and sign a land transfer tax affidafit which the town's lawyer prepares.  They need details on who will own the property...name, address, and birth date.   That's it.

[MELRAY]

thanks for the info. I'll PM you nedpred. 

[worldjohn]

it seems times have changed.  I have the same problem with a recent tax sale.  the municiplaities lawyer is insisting I get a lawyer or paralegal to sign the " acknowledgement respecting electronic registration" in front of.  Very annoying.  and I still havent gotten around to doing it as Im still looking for a way around it.

[Jayz]

I asked my lawyer who would have charged me for $500 while the town lawyer did just that for free. So why pay extra to have your own lawyer? The only concern I would think of is if any problem arises since the town lawyer represents the town therefore only works in the best interest of the town. But hey, this is a taxsale, if there's any problem, it's already there.

[netpred]

I have been thinking about this issue and it is an interesting question. the Municipal Act imposes an obligation (as I read it) on the township to convey the tax sale property to the high bidder. However, the Law Society of Upper Canada, which regulates lawyers, has a rule that prevents lawyers from acting on both sides to a real estate transaction. There is a clear conflict here. In my very limited experience with tax sales, the lawyers that I have dealt with are quite happy to convey the property without the involvement of a second lawyer. However, it looks like some lawyers are concerned about the Law Society rule.

Another point was raised concerning paralegals. Paralegals are not permitted to offer services in real estate, so if seperate representation is required, it must be by a lawyer.

My guess is that in the future more lawyers will become concerned with the Law Society rule. There may even be further clarification from the Law Society in this respect. So, my guess is that in the future, winning tenders will need their own lawyers to address the Law Society requirements.

On the other hand, if I knew what I was talking about, I would never end up second bidder on a tender and have my deposit tied up for three months.

[DRD]

Congrats....I can forward you a blank LTT affidavit if required, If the township is a distance away you can fill out and have wittnesed. If going in two peoples names dont forget to specify joint tennants or tennants in common.

pm. if required

[Frank]

it seems times have changed.  I have the same problem with a recent tax sale.  the municiplaities lawyer is insisting I get a lawyer or paralegal to sign the " acknowledgement respecting electronic registration" in front of.  Very annoying.  and I still havent gotten around to doing it as Im still looking for a way around it.

That is interesting...there was once a time when even as a seller, you didn't need a lawyer (except to witness your signature on the planning statement part of the transfer document).  The electronic registration system has changed all of that, as has the new Law Society rules on dual representation. 

However, in the case of tax deeds this simply does not fit, since the tax deeds are not currently a document which can even be filed electronically.  So unless those municipalities have found some ingenious way around that, they are full of hog stuff.   I'd be interested in knowing how they have managed it...I have been proven wrong before, and no doubt will again someday.

[Jayz]

... . If going in two peoples names dont forget to specify joint tennants or tennants in common.
...

The Town lawyer in my recent case didn't concern anything like this. So it leaves it to me to decide however I want it to be whenever I want it, which is good I think.

[Frank]

... . If going in two peoples names dont forget to specify joint tennants or tennants in common.
...

The Town lawyer in my recent case didn't concern anything like this. So it leaves it to me to decide however I want it to be whenever I want it, which is good I think.

If you are in a partnership, then tenants-in-common is the way to go. 

However, if you are in a matrimonial partnership, then you want to retain rights of survivorship, so Joint-tenants is the way to go...otherwise, you will be faced with 1.5% probate on the proceeds of sale, aside from any capital gains which will have to be realized on the death of your spouse, instead of deferred to your own passage.

[Jayz]

... . If going in two peoples names dont forget to specify joint tennants or tennants in common.
...

The Town lawyer in my recent case didn't concern anything like this. So it leaves it to me to decide however I want it to be whenever I want it, which is good I think.

If you are in a partnership, then tenants-in-common is the way to go. 

However, if you are in a matrimonial partnership, then you want to retain rights of survivorship, so Joint-tenants is the way to go...otherwise, you will be faced with 1.5% probate on the proceeds of sale, aside from any capital gains which will have to be realized on the death of your spouse, instead of deferred to your own passage.

I understand this part. But if I don't specify percentages of ownership, I can make them whatever way I want to avoid extras when it comes to that point, can't I?

[Frank]

... . If going in two peoples names dont forget to specify joint tennants or tennants in common.
...

The Town lawyer in my recent case didn't concern anything like this. So it leaves it to me to decide however I want it to be whenever I want it, which is good I think.

If you are in a partnership, then tenants-in-common is the way to go. 

However, if you are in a matrimonial partnership, then you want to retain rights of survivorship, so Joint-tenants is the way to go...otherwise, you will be faced with 1.5% probate on the proceeds of sale, aside from any capital gains which will have to be realized on the death of your spouse, instead of deferred to your own passage.

I understand this part. But if I don't specify percentages of ownership, I can make them whatever way I want to avoid extras when it comes to that point, can't I?

I know I'll get into trouble on this one....but I would presume that unless you specify otherwise, it would automatically be 50/50

[MELRAY]

Actually, I thought to register it under an Ontario numbered company. I'm concerned to limit liabilities particularly being a commercial site.

[worldjohn]

More and more winners are going to be facing this problem as more municipalities are filing electronically now.
Is there any way around having to pay a lawyer to represent you?
Im trying to finalize a  tax sale win but the minucialities lawyer is telling me that my lawyer has to register the deed and I have to pay for LTT, consideration,  and deed registration ($70)
I contacted lawyers and the cheapest I can get it for is $250 plus disperments.  It seems very unfair that some municipalities will do it all for free and this one is making me pay.
Netpred made an interesting point " the Municipal Act imposes an obligation on the township to convey the tax sale property to the high bidder."
Can I insist, based on that , the municipality should pay the fees as well as for my lawyer?

[worldjohn]

thanks netpred. I'll use that and see if it can get me out of eating a couple of hundred dollars. all future winners may need that clause from the municple act as well.