Life Lease

[netpred]

, you should note that lawyers are insured so that if they provide any negligent service or advice, there is an insurance company to pick up the tab. The final comment is if you need surgery, do you go to a doctor or do it yourself using often contradictory internet advice?
.

First the lawyers actually own lpic,( lawyers insurance company)  good luck with that..when a lawyer screws up, another lawyer is given the file by Lpic.. The second lawyer then milks the file for a year and tries every way to screw you, If you have a cut and dry smoking gun fraud case against a lawyer you will maybe get 50 to 75 cents after a year ..this is presuming you have the money to hire a lawyer to fight the insurance company..yes you have to pay a lawyer to get the lawyers insurance company, which is owned by lawyers , to pay you for the damage caused by a crooked or incompetent lawyer..So if a lawyer screws you for 100K it will cost at least 100 more to recover it and take one to two years..  Now if the lawyer completely wipes you out, you wont have the money to sue and therefore you are screwed..sorry no insurance..

Insurance my ass..   ....  I have very good personal knowledge of a case where the lawyer emptied the trust accounts, forged contract and stole almost a mil  .. (15 years ago) When the Law society finally started to actually look into this, 6 months after the first fraud complaint..the lawyer put a 45 to his temple and blew his brains out..The insurance company tried to get out of paying on the grounds that " he is no longer under our jurisdiction"  Two years later they finally paid out to about half the people who could afford to fight ..LPIC defence was that since he killed himself, he could not defend himself and he was not actually convicted so they should not have to pay the insurance claim. ..

I can assure you it is now worse for the victims due to increases in LPIC claims and therefore LPIC fights harder.

The best lawyer is one you can avoid at all costs but sometimes you have absolutely no choice as you run up against an idiot who takes your lack of using a lawyer as a sign you cant afford a fight..

PFM:

I respect you greatly and the contributions that you make on this forum, but in this case you are wrong. You may have had bad experiences with lawyers, as I have had. If you read my post carefully, I talk of "competent and ethical lawyers". I stand by my comments. I have worked with many lawyers closely for 30 years. A competent and ethical lawyer is an absolute necessity. They will save you money and grief. Of course my comments do not apply to lawyers that do not have these characteristics.

When you refer to specific cases make sure that you have all of the facts. I also am familiar with a case from 15 -20 years ago where a number of clients were alleging lawyer fraud. The truth is that the complainers were party to the fraud and only complained when the whole house came tumbling down as a result of an economic downturn. There were other cases where LPIC tried to avoid paying because the insured lawyer would not cooperate. I am also aware that some LPIC lawyers are #G%#@. However, a compentent lawyer will make short work of them. In addition, I could ask how many board members carry any liability insurance for the legal advice or comments that they offer? Would any board member be prepared to back what they say with their own money? Probably not. That is why we always say that free advice is worth what it cost. When you pay a pro for advice, you can expect that pro to stand behind it, and the ethical and competent lawyer will.

A compentent and ethical lawyer is an absolute necessity. When you find the right lawyer, never lose him or her. Treasure the lawyer as you would a good spouse.

[Jayz]

, you should note that lawyers are insured so that if they provide any negligent service or advice, there is an insurance company to pick up the tab. The final comment is if you need surgery, do you go to a doctor or do it yourself using often contradictory internet advice?
.

First the lawyers actually own lpic,( lawyers insurance company)  good luck with that..when a lawyer screws up, another lawyer is given the file by Lpic.. The second lawyer then milks the file for a year and tries every way to screw you, If you have a cut and dry smoking gun fraud case against a lawyer you will maybe get 50 to 75 cents after a year ..this is presuming you have the money to hire a lawyer to fight the insurance company..yes you have to pay a lawyer to get the lawyers insurance company, which is owned by lawyers , to pay you for the damage caused by a crooked or incompetent lawyer..So if a lawyer screws you for 100K it will cost at least 100 more to recover it and take one to two years..  Now if the lawyer completely wipes you out, you wont have the money to sue and therefore you are screwed..sorry no insurance..

Insurance my ass..   ....  I have very good personal knowledge of a case where the lawyer emptied the trust accounts, forged contract and stole almost a mil  .. (15 years ago) When the Law society finally started to actually look into this, 6 months after the first fraud complaint..the lawyer put a 45 to his temple and blew his brains out..The insurance company tried to get out of paying on the grounds that " he is no longer under our jurisdiction"  Two years later they finally paid out to about half the people who could afford to fight ..LPIC defence was that since he killed himself, he could not defend himself and he was not actually convicted so they should not have to pay the insurance claim. ..

I can assure you it is now worse for the victims due to increases in LPIC claims and therefore LPIC fights harder.

The best lawyer is one you can avoid at all costs but sometimes you have absolutely no choice as you run up against an idiot who takes your lack of using a lawyer as a sign you cant afford a fight..

PFM:

I respect you greatly and the contributions that you make on this forum, but in this case you are wrong. You may have had bad experiences with lawyers, as I have had. If you read my post carefully, I talk of "competent and ethical lawyers". I stand by my comments. I have worked with many lawyers closely for 30 years. A competent and ethical lawyer is an absolute necessity. They will save you money and grief. Of course my comments do not apply to lawyers that do not have these characteristics.

When you refer to specific cases make sure that you have all of the facts. I also am familiar with a case from 15 -20 years ago where a number of clients were alleging lawyer fraud. The truth is that the complainers were party to the fraud and only complained when the whole house came tumbling down as a result of an economic downturn. There were other cases where LPIC tried to avoid paying because the insured lawyer would not cooperate. I am also aware that some LPIC lawyers are #G%#@. However, a compentent lawyer will make short work of them. In addition, I could ask how many board members carry any liability insurance for the legal advice or comments that they offer? Would any board member be prepared to back what they say with their own money? Probably not. That is why we always say that free advice is worth what it cost. When you pay a pro for advice, you can expect that pro to stand behind it, and the ethical and competent lawyer will.

A compentent and ethical lawyer is an absolute necessity. When you find the right lawyer, never lose him or her. Treasure the lawyer as you would a good spouse.

Netpred, you keep saying a competent ethical lawyer ... I think everybody agrees. The question is where is one? I've been looking for one, why didn't you give me the one you know who is competent and ethical?? Come on, folks here are simply looking for second opinions and wanna hear similar experiences from others so they know at least what a competent and ethical lawyer looks like - isn't this a major function for a forum?? - before they seriously talk to a lawyer they don't know if this will be a competent and ethical one. A near-retirement senior lawyer's legal advice would have costed me $100,000 recently if I hadn't insisted my way; A downtown fancy office lawyer a friend of mine used, after charging her for nearly $25,000, couldn't even "watch" 2 properties she had major interest on and let them be sold secretly by the person on title - the friend of mine lost her $200,000 this alone as result. My point is, where is the competent and ethical lawyer? netpred, you seem to know. Time for you to contribute something useful instead of simply telling people to talk to a lawyer.  

[netpred]

Jayz:

I agree that the forum is for an exchange of information. This includes information about properties and whatever else may be relevant. However, some of the questions require legal expertise. When I see a question that I think requires legal expertise I give the only advice that I am qualified to give, and that is to see a lawyer. The original poster can do as they wish, but I don't see anthing wrong in telling them to see a pro for their issue.

I also agree that not all lawyers are competent and ethical. The wrong lawyer will cost you dearly. There are lawyers who are wild cannons, who don't really know what they are doing or who don't care about what they are doing. If you hire one of these, you are in trouble. However, it is not fair, and patently wrong, to call all lawyers scumbags or worse. Most are not.

There are more competent and ethical lawyers than there are not. Most large firms have lawyers that are top rate but they are probably too expensive for the small investor with a small problem. Generally, I would stick with a small firm or sole practitioner. The first step in finding one is to ask for friends & associates for referrals. This does not always work but it could. Another option is to call the Lawyer Referral Service which is operated by the Law Society of Upper Canada. You can speak to a lawyer that practices in the area for free for 30 minutes. Follow this link for complete information:

http://www.lsuc.on.ca/public/a/faqs---lawyer-referral-service/

When you meet with a lawyer for the first time use common sense in making a decision as to retain him or her. The lawyer should be able to explain in simple language what they can do for you, how much it will cost and how long it will take. If they cannot, look elswhere. Most lawyers will provide a written retainer agreement. Don't hire a lawyer on the basis of price alone. A lawyer that knows what they are doing can probably get it done faster and cheaper than a discount lawyer. Make no mistake, you will have to pay a lawyer, and it will usually be a not insignificant amount. Rare is a problem that can be solved for $500 or $1000. So for a small problem, it may not make financial sense to retain a lawyer. But when you are talking about a life interest encumbering a property, you may be talking tens of thousands of dollars or more.

Do not use a paralegal because they are not qualified or licensed to provide any real estate services.

I know that lawyers do not have a great reputation and that there have been problems. But the bottom line is that for some issues, you need a lawyer. For example, I just received some good news about a permit application that went through notwithstanding the objections of the local conservation authority. In other words, the conservation authority said no permit, but a lawyer got me one. This cost me a few bucks in legal fees, but it will pay for itself at least tenfold. This is not the first time that I have succeeded. That is why I am willing to take chances on properties that cannot be built on because they are on a floodplain etc. You may not win all of them, but when you do, you win big. There are several conservation authorities that know me well. The next time I deal with those they will think hard before they say no and incur $20,000 - $30,000 in legal fees justifying their refusal.

So, in this case, an opinion was asked for and I provided mine. This is not, in my opinion, where you can find a fast and cheap solution using forum advice. Of course, my opinion was provided free of charge so I will add "you get what you pay for."

By the way, if any of you own any waterfront property for which you cannot obtain a permit, pm me the details and I may buy it from you.

[avlawg]

I agree with PFM and the rest where do you get a good lawyer.  I have recently had two bad experiences with two different lawyers The one problem was a right away over a piece of land to get to my parcel I ended up taking it to a second lawyer that I have used for years (but he didn't  close deals  out of his area) and he agreed to look at the deal for me as a favour to me believe it or not he didn't charge me, and we had to fix a few things on my deal  I think there are more bad then good they all take on too much work and never call you back just my opinion  unfortunately my Lawyer is now retired

[Jayz]

I agree with PFM and the rest where do you get a good lawyer.  I have recently had two bad experiences with two different lawyers The one problem was a right away over a piece of land to get to my parcel I ended up taking it to a second lawyer that I have used for years (but he didn't  close deals  out of his area) and he agreed to look at the deal for me as a favour to me believe it or not he didn't charge me, and we had to fix a few things on my deal  I think there are more bad then good they all take on too much work and never call you back just my opinion  unfortunately my Lawyer is now retired

This is what I am saying. Netpred is luck to have the most competent and ethical lawyer out there. Rest of us ain't that lucky. I left a message for an urgent and important update to the lawyer I am using 2 days ago. No response yet! WTF. I am talking to another one.

[netpred]

I agree with PFM and the rest where do you get a good lawyer.  I have recently had two bad experiences with two different lawyers The one problem was a right away over a piece of land to get to my parcel I ended up taking it to a second lawyer that I have used for years (but he didn't  close deals  out of his area) and he agreed to look at the deal for me as a favour to me believe it or not he didn't charge me, and we had to fix a few things on my deal  I think there are more bad then good they all take on too much work and never call you back just my opinion  unfortunately my Lawyer is now retired

This is what I am saying. Netpred is luck to have the most competent and ethical lawyer out there. Rest of us ain't that lucky. I left a message for an urgent and important update to the lawyer I am using 2 days ago. No response yet! WTF. I am talking to another one.

Keep looking until you find the right one.

I wanted to offer the name of my lawyer via pm but he is semi-retired (still young) and enjoying many other interests. He does not want any more work.

One thing that I should add is that he is not cheap. It costs about $2500 for an opinion. He will give me clear odds. There were times where he said I had no case and I was out the $2500. Other times he told me I had a decent or better shot. His services in pursuing the matter have averaged in cost $20,000 to $25,000. Every such case was successful. I have no doubt that I will lose one eventually, but how could I blame him if he gave me an 80% chance? It means that I will lose 20% of the time.

My lawyer is nothing special. But I make my expectations clear, listen closely to what he has to say and mostly, I am unafraid to open my chequebook. I have found that most horror stories begin with the client not wanting to pay for the compentent lawyer and looking for a cheap one. I have found that most lawyers will not respond promptly to calls if they are not being paid properly to do so.

Just my two cents. I realize that there are tons of contrary opinions out there, but I did want to share my thoughts.

[Dave2]

You guys obviously deal in the high class section of tax sales.

I use a lawyer in three cases:  a) to keep me out of trouble like title searches
b) As a sounding board on a meeting time used basis.
c) When I get into trouble which hopefully is rare.

For the majority of tax sale property I deal with I can't afford legal fees of any size if I wish to make a profit. That's why I would like to stick hopefully with situations 1) and 2). 

Low lifes like me on the board don't deal in high end properties so we hopefully don't get into a lot of fights because all parties realize that there is limited value to be fought out over.  That's why I was saying in an earlier post that before you start shooting hopefully you avoid these problems in advance.  Yes I have a big legal bill but it is mostly title searches and the aftermath if we find something that needs clarification. 

[Dave2]

Netpred:

30 K for a waterfront property is not a bad deal IF there is only a limited amount of hastle.  The only difference between you and me is you are willing to put up with more hastle and
as a result the offering price has to be lower.  You either pay the tax sales people or the lawyers and hopefully at the end of the day there is a (good) profit.  

I have had a lower threshold for hastle then you but as a result I have to pay more upfront.  

Unfortunately the majority of tax sales are not waterfront and as a result the profit potential is usually significantly lower.  Thus I have less money to spend on lawyers or other expenses.

[netpred]

Netpred:

30 K for a waterfront property is ot a bad deal IF there is only a limited amount of hastle.  The only difference between you and me is you are willing to put up with more hastle and
as a result the offering price has to be lower.  You either pay the tax sales people or the lawyers and hopefully at the end of the day there is a (good) profit.  

I have had a lower threshold for hastle then you but as a result I have to pay more upfront.  

Unfortunately the majority of tax sales are not waterfront and as a result the profit potential is usually significantly lower.  Thus I have less money to spend on lawyers or other expenses.

Well put Dave. But the problem as I see it is that there have been recent examples of people bidding 25k and 40k plus for unbuildable waterfront lots. Add 25k in legals plus the risk of losing and it makes no sense to me. These lots are attractive at 10k, no more. Unless you know what you are doing and prepared to spend $$ and take the risk, these properties are usually a liability with lots of outstanding problems such as no permits, flood plain, easements and rights of way etc.

So when is the big party at Rice Lake? Or is it Georgian Bay? I like the idea of our most successful member hosting an annual weekend booze-fest. And be sure to bring the new Corvette .

[Dave2]

Netpred:

Actually I expect the members of this board who will get the corvette will not be you or I because we do not have property in the right area .  There is more potential for PFM and Frank and I will PM them and other regular members who are in that neck of the woods with details as it is a real honest to god opportunity after I make certain that the buyer is not interested in our neck of the woods. 

Lets be honest it will round out PFM's image; I mean with a corvette and a big boat he can become the image of a successful tax sale entrepeneur.  All I want in return are a couple of
pictures of the "accessories." if Rob will permit them.  (this is a family board)    He is not number 1 for nothing. 

Any potential parties have a long way to go yet. A lot of work to get things ready for sale or keep.  That is why right now I am keeping quiet on buying generally because of "post purchase" enhancement work.  That is not for the public domain so I will send you a PM to show what I am talking about and it will prove to you that there are alternatives to getting in a fight. It also does not cost as much although it is still hard work.

[speedfreeksteve]

I'm starting to think that this board is doing more harm than good as far as advice goes. Why spend the time and money on a lawyer to deal with a threat that has zero potential consequences?