Tyendinaga

[bobs]

Does anyone have info on Tyendinaga?  The township won't mail or email the package, you have to go there and get it yourself.  Is there anything interesting before I go for a drive or is it a waste of time??

[netpred]

I don't have any information at all but last tax sale this municipality was selling a whole bunch of houses. I suspect that there are a number of houses up again this time. The problem is that there is no industry or commerce and the tax base is very low. The largest industry is the flea market! As I recall, taxes on residential properies are extremely high. The area also has a high number of people on social assistance. So I suspect that you can get property here rather cheaply, but the problem is what do you do with your "winnings"? I considered looking into this sale but am passing based on past experiences. Sorry that I can't be more of a help. If you are looking for a bargain, it is probably worth the drive out to have a closer look.

[ErnestBidder]

  Plan 21M160 is a registered subdivision, where the developer went under years ago; if you are interested in a good deal, call Mr. Steve Mercer direct (he is a great guy to deal with), and see if he can email the plan to you, or goto the Belleville registry office and buy a copy for $5 or so. The few lots that are not for sale have already been sold & built on; in maps.google.com, go to shannonville ont, follow regional road 7 north, over the 401, and on up to Harmony road; go east on Harmony road until you see Power road (it runs north only): if Power were extended southerly, it would more or less bisect 21M1690; the road you can see, running south from Harmony, then west, then north, is where some of the lots have been sold, and where there are 2 - 5 lots ready to build on. This is good buy for a developer, as it's about 26 lots or so. I was going to do it, until I got tripped, then kicked in a tender place (by a third party). If anyone wants to discuss something privately, email me directly.

[worldjohn]

when I talked to the municipality they seemed intent on getting me not to bid by telling me that none of the vacant lots are buildable.  maybe they want to own them?

[Dave2]

 Plan 21M160 is a registered subdivision, where the developer went under years ago;

Assuming Ernest Bidder's facts are correct the right play in one of these can be potentially very profitable if you have the financing and the necessary horsepower.  

I have one now (regular real estate sale) and lets say it is interesting.  I think World John has also identified a key issue; is the municipality on board or not?  It can make or break you.  

One other key issue.  You had better have the funds or financing to carry this.  You can spend twice as much as your original investment before you start generating positive cash flow.
  

[ErnestBidder]

  Steve Mercer was away yesterday, and he's the one to talk to. A successful bidder, in order to carry the project through to completion, would have to put in the roads, and a building permit does, of course, require a well on the lot, so perhaps they meant that there's extra work to do, but this is normal for developer/builders. This work can be done in stages, so it's not a punitive process. The unfortunate thing is that the Tax Sale rules do not allow municipalities to sell the whole subdivision en masse.

  Mr Mercer was going to put on a gathering for interested developer/builders last year, & was definitely interested at that time; don't see why they'd want to own a registered subdivision full of evergreens, which do not contribute to their tax base. There are actually a number of such subdivisions in Ontario that I had tracked down, but the 08 financial drubbing has left me parked for at least another year. There is VERY good money to be made in following through on these developments.

[Dave2]

  Steve Mercer was away yesterday, and he's the one to talk to. A successful bidder, in order to carry the project through to completion, would have to put in the roads, and a building permit does, of course, require a well on the lot, so perhaps they meant that there's extra work to do, but this is normal for developer/builders. This work can be done in stages, so it's not a punitive process.  There is VERY good money to be made in following through on these developments. 

Ernest Bidder:

How about Hydro and other above ground services.  I walked away from one last fall because of hydro cost. 

[Frank]

When the Municipality tells you that these are not buildable lots, they are not lying...in their current state that is.  If a builder/developer was to buy all of them then they would have the wherewithall to put in the necessar infrastructure to get the subdivision built.  It is likely that they have already had talks with people of this ilk, and are now trying to ward off the possibility that one or more of us might bid on a lone lot and win it...putting a monkey wrench into the builder/developers plans. 

Each of these lots can be purchased separately by different bidders, and it can all go off without a hitch, provided they all agreed to invest the necessary capital to install the roads, etc...to the municipalities specifications.   What's the likelyhood, I think I could win a few beers on that one. 

[ErnestBidder]

Dave2:

  This subdivsion, and others, can be completed in stages, and same with Hydro: I don't think they could force you to put it 30 services, for example, if you were building 4 houses. As far as other services, you put in a well, and test it for flow and quality, but a septic bed as apart of the building permit process, and up to the builder. A driveway is essential, but need only be of enough quality to support concrete trucks, no one says it has to be beautiful. Everything is negotiable. There is an old subdivision agreement in place, and you will have to negotiate a new or a revised agreement. They want this to go ahead: it brings more taxpayers, and it's just a few minutes north of the 401.

[Dave2]

Dave2:

  This subdivsion, and others, can be completed in stages, and same with Hydro: I don't think they could force you to put it 30 services, for example, if you were building 4 houses. As far as other services, you put in a well, and test it for flow and quality, but a septic bed as apart of the building permit process, and up to the builder. A driveway is essential, but need only be of enough quality to support concrete trucks, no one says it has to be beautiful. Everything is negotiable. There is an old subdivision agreement in place, and you will have to negotiate a new or a revised agreement. They want this to go ahead: it brings more taxpayers, and it's just a few minutes north of the 401.

Ernest Bidder:

The problem I have in this business is I like to make money and to be honest with you I just don't see your math overall.   Of course unlike successful people, like you, Netpred and this guy   I have substantial overhead expenses for timbits and beer because I am not afraid to put my money where my mouth is and a lot of times I get caught by my smarter associates. So be it.  

I am currently doing exactly what you are talking about but I have a few advantages;

I have paved roads already in;
I have bell; high speed internet and hydro at the lot line;
I am zoned ready to build;
I also have natural gas at the lot line.  
I am a hour plus closer to Toronto (no I don't have Franks lambourghini that all the real estate agents use to tell us average driving time and the neighbouring homes are interesting to say the least (see photos) in a mature subdivision.  
My risks of getting scalped literally and figuratively should be lower.
In spite of that I still have spent around twenty thousand to get one lot ready to build and over six months of time.

Expenses to date include :

Entranceway;
Well
Engineering report and Well Treatment system
Surveying;
Property taxes;

When you are next down this way drop by and I will show you the invoices.  Alternatively Netpred has promised to drop by because he claims he is getting thirsty and he is worried that all those beers I owe him may get skunky.  I will ask him or you to verify what I am saying if he is first.

Of course the last time I held back one of the smarter members of this board
made me like like an idiot because of the way he showed us all how it is done.

[ErnestBidder]

  Well, every lot needs an entrance, and a well, if not on municipal water. Don't know why you need an engineering report, unless the soil is unstable, and you need the report in order to facilitate a lot sale. If you are building and selling to market the lot and house as a new home package, in an area where instability is common, then it's peace of mind for a buyer. Engineering reports are normally part of the subdivision process, paid for by the developer on the way to registration. Well treatment systems and surveying for house location is the responsibility of the builder, and everyone pays property taxes. These are all, more or less, common and normal expenses. Geez, Dave2, if I didn't know better, I'd say you were crying poor to better the odds in your beer betting forays.

[netpred]

Don't cry for Dave on this one. I would happily pay Dave, like everyone else here, what he paid for his subdivision. His is a well-established upper middle class (at least) subdivision an hour within Toronto. All you have to do is a drive through and you will get what I say. On the other hand, Tyendinaga is an economically depressed area that is over two hours from Toronto. The area will not support development IMHO and it is difficult to sell anything because of the extremely high tax rate. Even assuming that you can renegotiate the subdivision agreement, you should keep in mind that things like hydro and roads don't have much negotiating room.

Bear in mind that I have not looked at Tyendinaga so I am merely speculating based on information provided in this thread. It sounds like this one is for some of the heavy hitters who are members or lurkers here, not for the hobbiests like me.

  Well, every lot needs an entrance, and a well, if not on municipal water. Don't know why you need an engineering report, unless the soil is unstable, and you need the report in order to facilitate a lot sale. If you are building and selling to market the lot and house as a new home package, in an area where instability is common, then it's peace of mind for a buyer. Engineering reports are normally part of the subdivision process, paid for by the developer on the way to registration. Well treatment systems and surveying for house location is the responsibility of the builder, and everyone pays property taxes. These are all, more or less, common and normal expenses. Geez, Dave2, if I didn't know better, I'd say you were crying poor to better the odds in your beer betting forays.

[ErnestBidder]

 Again, keep in mind the municipality wants it to be done. These are middleclass working man properties, within a very short commute to Kingston, Belleville, Trenton, Napanee, Peterborough, and to the playgrounds in the area, and if I weren't still behind the 8-ball for at least another year, I'd go for it. This project comes with the heavy lifting done, so you are not going to be spending every waking minute devoted to seeing it through. When opportunity knocks, you have to open the door, and it's knocking, and it's not looking for whole lot of money. You're not going to make a million dollars, but it will be very nice.

[Dave2]

 Well, every lot needs an entrance, and a well, if not on municipal water. Don't know why you need an engineering report, unless the soil is unstable, and you need the report in order to facilitate a lot sale. If you are building and selling to market the lot and house as a new home package, in an area where instability is common, then it's peace of mind for a buyer. Engineering reports are normally part of the subdivision process, paid for by the developer on the way to registration. Well treatment systems and surveying for house location is the responsibility of the builder, and everyone pays property taxes.

Ernest Bidder:

At some point we get too personal for a public forum and the only way you are going to accept it is see for yourself.  Just remember the object of the exercise is to make you money not lose it.

Each municipality has their standards before they say you can get a building permit.  That's the first question any buyer builder or owner will ask. Our friendly provincial government is really making it expensive to develop rural building lots and as a result they are really putting their foot down on the municipalities.  

Where I am dealing the municipality wants a fair amount of prework before they will committ themselves for a building permit even where I am dealing with infill lots in an established subdivision.   Zoning and infrastructure are aleady in.

I will deal with one issue as an example.  The engineering relates to the well and the engineer is a hydrologist.  The well drilling report is not enough, no engineering report no building permit its that simple.  The municipality insists that the engineers report deal with the following issues.

First well drilling is not an exact science.  In my area the average of over 50 wells is 1 in 3 is a dry hole.

a) Well flow (Even that I pumped the well by the well driller for 24 hours constantly was not enough.)
b) Water quality certified by a recognized testing laboratory and recommended treatment of any impurities.
c)  Effect of the pumping on any neighbouring wells within 100 or 300 meters.
(7 wells in my case)
d) Certification by the engineering company that the treatment system is fully working before the home owner will get an occupancy permit.

I have a 16 page report  that the registrar wants placed on title.  Separately the treatment quote is 10 pages long.  This whole process took 6 months and obviously did not come for free. but I will get my permit and more importantly a purchaser can see with his or her own eyes that he is not building in a low rent part of town.  

You don't have to worry about me in this tax sale.  I do not have infinite resources and obviously have some further work to do in the property I already own.