Revenue Lien

[dogmacanada]

Would National revenue liens be the responsibility of the new owner?  If so, the property will never sell and no one will ever get there money, seems weird

 LIEN $87,887 HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF CANADA AS REPRESENTED BY
THE MINISTER OF NATIONAL REVENUE
C
REMARKS: TAX LIEN

[NDR]

Debts to the Crown always survive tax sales.  No escaping taxes.

Though it'd be interesting to hear if anyone has ever tried negotiating a payment plan with the CRA.  I suspect that they wouldn't negotiate down, but you might be able to work something out payments wise. 

If not, could be an expensive lesson as the CRA would probably pounce quickly on your other assets (wages, bank accounts, liens against other real assets, etc) if you did become the winner, once they smell fresh meat...

[g2020]

To get a better handle on the dangers of Government Liens you may wish to read the Toronto Tax Sale Act, since it deals specifically with this dilemma. What is common practice in some municipalities is formalized in the case of the City of Toronto. You will find that the property that is not sold at tax sale vests with a 50 50 sharing process so that both the municipality and the government lien holder give up part of their claim and enter in to a proceeds of sale arrangement. I suspect that the City of Toronto entitlement arrangement with government interest holders will be the model for future changes to the Tax Sale Act. Also keep in mind that if you buy the property with registered, or unregistered, government liens on title, no one will make a deal with you to reduce the lien amount owing. I know it sounds unfair, but that is the way it is - the owner loses his property and still owes the remaining balance on the lien. The municipality takes a hit but at least they get something, plus a new owner to start paying taxes. I hope this helps you realize why a title search in both the land registry and the sheriff is so important.
p.s. What property are you referring to?

[dogmacanada]

Teeswater, south bruce

[dogmacanada]

Teeswater, south bruceq

[g2020]

I wondered if you were referring to the one on the Hamilton sale. It is usually the liens from crown corporations that cause grief for those who do not spend enough time and money to know just what they are assuming. In my experience CRA (Revenue Canada) is very understanding and is only interested in the property, and not the other assets or bank accounts of the tax sale purchaser - crown corporations are the ones to really run away from. You can never eliminate risk when buying a tax sale property, just build a risk factor into your bid price. Dave2 may be perfect, but the rest of us make mistakes - lots of them!🐊

[Dave2]

You can never eliminate risk when buying a tax sale property, just build a risk factor into your bid price.   may be perfect, but the rest of us make mistakes - lots of them!

Yea Its like the last time I went to see my maker in a former life.

'Have you ever done anything of particular merit other then drink beer?' St. Peter asked Dave2 at the entrance to the pearly gates.

'Well, I can think of one thing,' I offered. 'On a trip to the Rocky Mountains out in Alberta, I came upon a gang of bikers who were threatening a young woman. I directed them to leave her alone, but they wouldn't listen. So I approached the largest and most tattooed biker and smacked him in the face, kicked his bike over, ripped out his nose ring, and threw it on the ground. I yelled, 'Now, back off or I'll kick the shit out of all of you!'

St. Peter was impressed, 'When did this happen?'

'A couple of minutes ago.'

[worldjohn]

Funny one dave.  A crown lien was mentioned for the Hamilton tax sale. Anyone want to save me the $8 and tell me which property has the lien? Not all of us are as successful as Dave2.  $8 means a lot to someone who ends up being the second highest bidder as often as me

[g2020]

If anyone is paying 8 bucks for a title search then they cannot be concerned with surviving government interests. For 8 bucks all you get is the legal name(s) of the owner(s). You may see a registered lien but that is not enough. To flush out all government interests you have to go to the area on the search screen titled "Writs" in the top left hand corner. This is where the real cost becomes evident. You have to search each owner separately 💲 and then pay to look at the writs 💲 registered against that owner if there are any. When your tax deed is registered, there should be an execution check (writs) and those that are not cleared become things that your tax deed is subject to. Somewhat like in the biker parable Dave2 points out that there are costs and benefits when you assume risk. Just because there are outstanding writs against the owner by a government department or crown corporation, is no reason why you should not tender it. It depends how much you are willing to pay. Sometimes you will see a very high tender and think the person is uninformed - in fact, that person may be bidding high so that there is enough excess proceeds of sale to cover a government lien. I would not discourage someone from investigating a property just because there is a government lien since I would not know how much they are going to bid. The best way to save search fees is to walk by City Hall this Tuesday, on your way to the Land Registry, since the property that you are interested in may well have been redeemed by then. Good luck making any money on the Hamilton sale.🐊

[worldjohn]

LOL that was the longest non answer I've ever gotten.  all valuable info but not specifically what I was requesting. I was going to go look that the houses Monday then go do title searches.  if theres a lien on one it would save me the gas and time of looking at the place.  If I do the title searches first I might waste time and money looking up something that I might later see is a burnt out wreck.  It wasn't about the 8 dollars it was about saving me a trip because I never go further if there a crown lien. so want some good Karma and help save the environment from my gas guzzler driving around Hamilton?
also I noticed a cynical tone to "good luck making any money" why is that? do you think the competition is too much, making the profit margins too small?

[worldjohn]

never mind I just found out its the main st property that has the crown lien.  found it using google lol.  but you can answer the second part about why making money is a long shot in hamilton

[g2020]

Sorry, I did not mean to be evasive but when it comes to interests of the crown there is no case law and still no guidance or definition in the Municipal Act. I really do not have a clue, other than to do what Worldjohn is doing. Run!
Now with respect to Hamilton as a place to make money on Tax Sales, I do have a clue. Firstly there is the natural Toronto person propensity to overestimate the value of Hamilton properties, but they really are that low. Secondly the Hamilton staff work very hard to contact the owners before the sale and with all the good ones getting redeemed you end up with too much money chasing too few properties. Remember the Toronto sale last summer with big ads in a major newspaper and no one making any money. It seems that to make money on tax sales you have to get away from the major metropolitan areas. Thirdly one of the contributors to this board is a retired Hamilton treasurer - need I say more.🐊