Hawkesbury

[dogmacanada]

Anyone bidding?  I think I will go to the opening.  Looks like a police officer owns it, likely will be redeem

[dogmacanada]

I completed a lien check on this property, they was over 200,000 owed to Revenue Canada...  The property sold for 27,005 am I missing something? Does the new owner have to pay these liens?  Property was worth 50,000 at best

[Matt]

Dogma.

$27k could have been a good deal if there was no such lien on the title.
Sad to see another tax sale mistake..

But, who knows there may be a stack of gold bars buried underneath the basement floor, and the purchaser solely knew all about it...

[Dave2]

Dogma.

$27k could have been a good deal if there was no such lien on the title.
Sad to see another tax sale mistake..

But, who knows there may be a stack of gold bars buried underneath the basement floor, and the purchaser solely knew all about it...

For the sake of saving at most a little more then $100 for a title check someone has lost 50 times that or worse.  Still it keeps happening again and again in spite of all the warnings.  

Actually the fun one will the Sheriffs sales in Toronto next week.  (tuesday) With almost 2000 viewers we are headed I believe to an all time record for a post topic.

Anyone planning to go?

[Dave2]

But, who knows there may be a stack of gold bars buried underneath the basement floor, and the purchaser solely knew all about it...

Matt:  

All I do is create my own luck and enjoy beer.  How about this?

Sheriff's Sale of Lands Ventes de terrains par le sherif

UNDER AND BY VIRTUE OF a Writ of Seizure and Sale issued out of the Federal Court of Justice dated April 26, 2012, Sheriff?s file 12-690, to me directed, against the real and personal property of 778444 Ontario Ltd., Debtor, at the suit of Canada Revenue Agency, Creditor, I have seized and taken in execution all the right, title, interest and equity of redemption of

778444 Ontario Ltd., debtor, in and to: PCL 10-1, SEC M311; LT 10, PL M311, Nepean, and municipally known as

19 Burnbrook Crescent, Nepean, Ontario.

All of which said right, title, interest and equity of redemption of 778444 Ontario Ltd., Debtor, in the said lands and tenements described above, I shall offer for sale by Public Auction subject to the conditions set out below at, Sheriff?s Office, 161 Elgin Street, 2nd Floor, Ottawa, Ontario, on March 13, 2015 at 10:00 A.M.

CONDITIONS:

The purchaser to assume responsibility for all mortgages, charges, liens, outstanding taxes, and other encumbrances. No representation is made regarding the title of the land or any other matter relating to the interest to be sold. Responsibility for ascertaining these matters rests with the potential purchaser(s).

TERMS:

Deposit 10% of bid price or $1,000.00, whichever is greater Payable at time of sale by successful bidder To be applied to purchase price Non-refundable Ten business days from date of sale to arrange financing and pay balance in full at: Sheriff"s Office: 161 Elgin Street, Ottawa, Ontario K2P 2K1

All payments in cash or by certified cheque made payable to the Minister of Finance Deed Poll provided by Sheriff only upon satisfactory payment in full of purchase price

Other conditions as announced THIS SALE IS SUBJECT TO CANCELLATION BY THE SHERIFF WITHOUT FURTHER NOTICE UP TO THE TIME OF SALE.

Note:

No employee of the Ministry of the Attorney General may purchase any goods or chattels, lands or tenements exposed for sale by a Sheriff under legal process, either directly or indirectly.

Dated: January 27, 2015
Jose Boulianne Sheriff   City of Ottawa
161 Elgin Street Ottawa, Ontario K2P 2K1
(148-P049E)

[Matt]

Dave:

Looks like this particular sheriff's sale of land is a repeat.
It was up for sale in February, 2013.

Does anyone know what happened to it last time?

[Dave2]

Dave:

Looks like this particular sheriff's sale of land is a repeat.
It was up for sale in February, 2013.

Does anyone know what happened to it last time?

Matt:

First property is in a good area close to Ottawa river.

I am only guessing but if you read the sheriff notice there is this little item.  "at the suit of Canada Revenue Agency, Creditor,"

My guess is that the amount of the claim by CRA greatly exceeds
that of the value of the property.  

We get repeats very occasionally in tax sales as well like recently in Tweed where one was a retender of one held two years earlier.  Even in spite of the prior knowledge and the fact I
doubled the winning bid from the prior time I still lost again. (LOL).  

That is what I hate about tax sales; I always bid too high leaving too much on the table or too low.  I wish I was smart like the winning bidder recently in one in Trent Hills, who beat the second place bidder by one cent.  

In the one in Tweed; I knew something was up, when Ontario Tax Sales refused to run a title search.  Did my own and had to check with treasurer before I submitted my bid and she explained that the former problem was solved. Bottom line was the municipality could not register title in the former tender  which is an interesting one.  

For the legal beagles a question, "IF the municipality cannot register title can they still claim your bid."  

[Matt]

Are you talking about the 100 acre acreage sold for 21K?

Both OTS and Tri-Target did not offer title searches for that property.
So I drove down to the county land registry office in Belleville and did my own title search in a bitter cold morning- I presume you did similar or the same.
Of course I did not win that one because I bid low.  I had to reserve some contingency aside just in case.

I think that the title searchers refused to do title search on the land because the property was still in Registry (R), not in Land Titles (LT).
These are my thoughts:

1. It is costly for them to travel to do the search as they cannot directly access Registry from their offices.

2. Lands in the LT system are guaranteed by the government of Ontario, but the ones remaining in Registry, titles are NOT guaranteed.  Therefore, OTS or Tri-Target will not even consider doing title searches which they cannot guarantee anyway.  And so the properties in Registry should be handled with more care and caution- maybe a lawyer is required to be on the safe side.

3. More or less 10% properties in Ontario are still in Registry.  I have heard that some of them have quite complicated problem(s) and are subject to settlements before they can be transferred to LT.

4. What if municipality refuses to or cannot register title?  I am not too sure. But I can at least suggest here that we should now consider buying title insurances.

Would anyone like to elaborate further?

Cheers!

Matt

[g2020]

Hi Matt. Great discussion points. Last year we had a similar situation where two of the lots that we purchased in a subdivision were in land titles, and the third was still in land registry . I am an experienced conveyancor and searched all three myself, so that aspect was not a problem. However, registration was. Fortunately the municipality was using OTS and their Real Tax division, who are a very competent and service oriented team. I got deeds for the two in land titles within two days of them receiving the required paperwork. The one with title remaining in land titles was more complicated and took much longer. In land registry the old paper forms are required and fax/e-mail delivery of information is not allowed. Fortunately our local courier here in Florida is also a notary public, since we had left for the winter by then. To get a tax deed registered under the registry system there is a form that needs to be commissioned by signing in front of a commissioner, and swearing that the information on the form is correct to the best of your knowledge and belief. I returned the documents by courier and eventually got a copy of the registered tax deed.
In land registry the municipality can register anything, but that does not mean that you would ever be able to sell it!
With respect to title insurance, I doubt that you could get it at a price that you would be willing to pay, and even if you did get it, you would find that it did not cover the $200,00.00 lien mentioned by Dogma, and assumed by the unfortunate tax sale purchaser.
Based upon my research and experience my advice would be to take the absence of a title search offering by OTS etc. as a warning - find something else or you too could get burned. There are lots of other marketable properties where you can buy an inexpensive title search from OTS. Others may have had better experience with these straggler properties, where even a "qualified" transfer to Land Titles could not be achieved by some of the best real estate lawyers in the Province. I look forward to hearing from someone who has a solution. I hope this helps. Great post Matt.🐊

[Frank]

Hi Matt. Great discussion points. Last year we had a similar situation where two of the lots that we purchased in a subdivision were in land titles, and the third was still in land registry . I am an experienced conveyancor and searched all three myself, so that aspect was not a problem. However, registration was. Fortunately the municipality was using OTS and their Real Tax division, who are a very competent and service oriented team. I got deeds for the two in land titles within two days of them receiving the required paperwork. The one with title remaining in land titles was more complicated and took much longer. In land registry the old paper forms are required and fax/e-mail delivery of information is not allowed. Fortunately our local courier here in Florida is also a notary public, since we had left for the winter by then. To get a tax deed registered under the registry system there is a form that needs to be commissioned by signing in front of a commissioner, and swearing that the information on the form is correct to the best of your knowledge and belief. I returned the documents by courier and eventually got a copy of the registered tax deed.
In land registry the municipality can register anything, but that does not mean that you would ever be able to sell it!
With respect to title insurance, I doubt that you could get it at a price that you would be willing to pay, and even if you did get it, you would find that it did not cover the $200,00.00 lien mentioned by Dogma, and assumed by the unfortunate tax sale purchaser.
Based upon my research and experience my advice would be to take the absence of a title search offering by OTS etc. as a warning - find something else or you too could get burned. There are lots of other marketable properties where you can buy an inexpensive title search from OTS. Others may have had better experience with these straggler properties, where even a "qualified" transfer to Land Titles could not be achieved by some of the best real estate lawyers in the Province. I look forward to hearing from someone who has a solution. I hope this helps. Great post Matt.🐊

Couldn't have said it better myself...having conducted searches under both systems, you always have a nagging feeling that you may have missed something.  Registry properties are also still subject to some unseen and undocumented claims such as squatters rights. Without being able to do an extensive survey of properties up for sale, you may find that you didn't get what you thought you were buying. 

[Dave2]

Couldn't have said it better myself...having conducted searches under both systems, you always have a nagging feeling that you may have missed something.  Registry properties are also still subject to some unseen and undocumented claims such as squatters rights. Without being able to do an extensive survey of properties up for sale, you may find that you didn't get what you thought you were buying.    

 : / Matt / G2020

Land titles does not solve everything.  Wait until you have to decide whether not to bid this tax sale coming up (OTS or Tri Target not aware of it yet). This is what is on Title.  

"RESERVING TO THE ONTARIO NORTHLAND TRANSPORTATION COMMISSION THEIR SUCCESSORS AND ASSIGNS OF ALL MINES, VEINS, SEAMS AND BEDS OF COAL, IRON, COBALT, SILVER AND OTHER MINERALS WHATSOEVER ALREADY FOUND ON OR WHICH MAY HEREAFTER BE FOUND ON OR UNDER THE SAID LANDS WITH FULL LIBERTY OF INGRESS, EGRESS AND REGRESS AT ALL TIMES FOR THE SAID COMMISSION THEIR SUCCESSORS AND ASSIGNS AND THEIR SERVANTS, SEARCHING FOR, WORKING, GETTING AND CARRYING AWAY THE SAID MINES AND MINERALS AND WITH FULL LIBERTY ALSO FOR THE SAID COMMISSION THEIR SUCCESSORS AND ASSIGNS TO SINK, DRIVE, MAKE AND USE PITS, SHAFTS, DRIFTS, ADITS, AIR COURSES AND WATER COURSES, AND TO ERECT AND SET UP FIRE AND OTHER ENGINES, MACHINERY AND WORKS AND TO LAY DOWN RAILWROADS AND OTHER ROAD IN, ON UNDER AND OVER THE SAID LANDS, OR ANY OF THEM FOR THE PURPOSE OF MORE CONVENIENTLY WORKING AND CARRYING AWAY THE SAID MINES AND MINTERALS, AN ALSO TO APPROPRIATE AND USE ANY PART OF THE SURFACE OF THE SAID LANDS FOR THE DEPOSITING, PLACING AND HEAPING THEREON THE MINERALS, WASTE RUBBISH AND OTHER SUBSTANCES WHICH MAY BE OBTAINED FROM THE SAID MIINES AND GENERALLY TO DO ALL OTHER ACTS AND THINGS NECESSARY OR PROPER FOR WORKING AND OBTAINING THE SAID MINES AND MINERALS ACCORDING TO THE MOST APPROVED PRACTICE OF MINING IN THE DISTRICT;"

They are even claiming the air rights above the property.  

[dogmacanada]

About the Sheriff sale in Ottawa... Over 500,000 in Leins, drove by today, likely worth just that...

[Dave2]

About the Sheriff sale in Ottawa... Over 500,000 in Leins, drove by today, likely worth just that...

I always felt the Nations capital was a cold place in winter.  I will try again further south with sale in springtime.  Maybe better luck there.