Comments on the Decline of the Ontario Manufacturing Sector and the impact on smaller towns such as Smith Falls

[Pfm1011]

It is a bottled water company ( which  is a dying business as we finally are starting to figure out that the billions of bottle are just a tad bit of a pollution problem)   that is looking at the hershey plant..lose 600 jobs, probably get 50 back for a few years  if you are lucky, Stanley tools gone and the regional center.

Essentially the place is a wipe out in regards to jobs , as are most of the small towns in Canada which relied on factorys.    The potential for retirement and tourism is great there but they  have to deal with the "north of hwy seven" people. (redneck trailer park trash)  and these people have to accept that manufactoring is gone..no more $28 an hour union jobs for the grade 10 drop outs.

As with all the small towns, the trailer trash have a problem with anyone who builds anything nice, has a job or has any money.

I was in Peterborough this weekend and the carni and monster trucks was on... some prime trailer park trash came into town for that..

[farrouk]

WOW..... Pfm you really have contempt for the poor folks that may have not have the same opportunities as you had. Can I assume you benefited from union wages as an airline pilot? Without unions you may have been working for some commuter airline in the States for 18K a year. I respect you for speaking your mind but you really touched a nerve with that last post.

[Pfm1011]

Sorry..you took it the wrongway...two problems....No more manufacturing jobs paying good wages.....and the small towns out that way have alot of trailer park trash

Did not mean the union workers were trailer trash..

And trailer trash has nothing to do with being poor ..its being poor and doing squat about it.....and by the way everyone in this country has opportunity to better themselves..

In regards to the airlines..I contracted overseas so I made way above union scale..but worked alot harder

[Rob]

The original post was very informative and conversation was flowing a certain way.  Something happened along the way, that brought up another issue. I decided to split the posts into two topics, that way the original topic can still be discussed (with that great photo).

 

[Rob]

farrouk,

You wrote:
"...you really have contempt for the poor folks that may have not have the same opportunities as you had"

Pfm1011,

You wrote:
"..its being poor and doing squat about it.....and by the way everyone in this country has opportunity to better themselves"


I found your opinions both quite interesting, you both seem to be on opposite sides of this issue.  I wonder how other visitors to this board feel?


Is it the opportunities that are given that determine someone's fate or is the opportunities that a person makes? 

I think your opportunities are only limited to your imagination.  But your imagination might be limited to the limited experiences you may face. 

Do Unions limit opportunity?  Do they expand opportunity?

[Frank]

Rob

Unions have a definite place in this world...it is only what people do with them that sometimes causes problems.   I've never been a member, but I have worked with them, and they can be a definite asset to a corporation if they operate with a proper frame of mind.

Trailer parks can be wonderful places...I have visited some very sweet parks in florida where mostly senior Canadians reside for part of the year, and there are some lovely ones down around Lake Erie (Port Rowan)...these of course are all vacation type places, and they are resting places for people that are not too badly off.  Then again, I have also seen some pretty disgusting ones...again it is what the people that live there and use these places make of them.  If they don't take pride then it begins to show pretty quickly, and the place becomes a redneck getaway.

I believe that you have to make your own opportunities.  I don't come from wealth, and yet I have done fairly well...no Donald Trump, but I have no problem helping my kids from time to time.

[markymark]

farrouk,

You wrote:
"...you really have contempt for the poor folks that may have not have the same opportunities as you had"

Pfm1011,

You wrote:
"..its being poor and doing squat about it.....and by the way everyone in this country has opportunity to better themselves"


I found your opinions both quite interesting, you both seem to be on opposite sides of this issue.  I wonder how other visitors to this board feel?


Is it the opportunities that are given that determine someone's fate or is the opportunities that a person makes? 

I think your opportunities are only limited to your imagination.  But your imagination might be limited to the limited experiences you may face. 

Do Unions limit opportunity?  Do they expand opportunity?

I've been on both sides of the fence and don't oppose either comment.I had university opportunities and worked union.
Both were 20 years ago when I knew everything. I believe your opportunities are determined by positive attitude,willingness to learn(educate yourself in any way possible),and learning how to type(ok I tried to add some dry humor again).
I know of several x union workers educating themselves currently because they have to.
I believe everyone makes their own bed.(some have housekeepers).

[farrouk]

I am not just talking about coming from a wealthy family that could pay for the best schools etc. But its more important to come from a supportive family with a Mom and Dad that are there for you to steer you on the right path, and pass on some kind of work ethic. I see these poor kids coming from an abusive family's with one parent absent and the other not giving a damm. Its hard to crawl out from that mess. You can but..... its extremely tough. Seems to be a lot of that up north for whatever reason, but I feel more sympathy than contempt.

[speedfreeksteve]

I have some perspective here.. I think.

I do consulting for a certain car company in Alliston. When I was a kid (before the said car manufacturer was there) Alliston and the towns around it within 20 kms were all pretty small. Since then the towns are all modest size with many amenites. Before automotive, many of the workers (thousands) worked in potato processing and small scale farming. It was a somewhat thriving business actually. Once the automotive manufacturer came along, the potato business largely fell by the wayside. People left potatoes to build cars, etc.

Now there's big overpriced subdivisions, the subdivisions are big but not the lot sizes or most of the houses. Now that overtime for line workers is long gone (which many depended on for their lifestyle), many need to sell now.

My view is that if a certain industry leaves an area it's not the end of the world. Another company or industry will often emerge to take their place.

I know Smith Falls also. It was never a boom town, and the Hershey factory was a very visible employer but based on its geographical isolation jobs will always be limited as they are in any place similar.

I'm not sure what my point is here, but don't blame the people for growing up in the sticks (I did myself). People can make something of themselves if they really want to. Historically it was the norm for people to move around for economic opportunities. I just don't see the point of the government trying to prop up certain communities at the expense of others. I don't think someone making 50 bucks an hour is going to care much if they're building a GM or a Hyundai/Honda/Toyota/Suzuki, whatever.

[Dexter702]

I grew up in a VERY small town (pop 265) and went to school in a two room school house until 7th grade. There is a small town attitude that some people can't escape. I live in big city now and still see that attitude here. I agree with Steve. Some people will be successful regardless of their upbringing.

[twinn1]

I tend to agree with PFM1011 view.  It is one thing to be poor (on a temp basis) but to revile in it and complain about the system while living off of it like lots of "white trash" up north is something different all together.  I grew up in rexdale a few blocks from ontario housing projects, I would see the government spend big money on cleaning up the buildings/townhomes only to see them in a state of disrepair 2 years later.  Its all about taking pride in were you live like Frank said. 

Small towns are very clicky, there always seems to be some type of anomoysity between 2-3 diff towns within a close proximity to each other.  I will never understand this, growing up in Toronto, Rexdale for a large part of my life, I never heard of that clicky attitude.  For the most part small town Ontario is going the way of the dinosoar, without an anchor industry the service dector dies.  All of the small towns folks think that the boomers are going to save them when they retire, its the new marketing gimmick for places like Windsor, Fort Erie, etc...  Gotta give Kirkland lake credit, they started that retirement marketing years ago.

Hershey is a great example of union strong arming that went wrong, the union there wanted to get paid something like $30/ hour for making chocolate, Hershey offerd to maintain the same wage plus some more benefits, union said no deal, Hershey said okay and packed up and left. 

[farrouk]

OK you guys win.
Every poor person is white trailer trash and can't wait for you guys to buy the lot next to them so they can park their beat up cars near the property line.
They will spend their days hurling their empty beer cans at your BMW or plotting to steal your jet ski as soon as you head back to Toronto.

[TW]

Small towns are very clicky, there always seems to be some type of anomoysity between 2-3 diff towns within a close proximity to each other.  I will never understand this, growing up in Toronto, Rexdale for a large part of my life, I never heard of that clicky attitude. 

Sorry this made me laugh.  The reason you never experienced the animosity growing up in Toronto is because Torontonian's  are the center of the universe and never thought about anyone besides themselves.  The rest of Canada has more animosity against Toronto than they do for their neighboring small town.   

** This is meant to be humorous, all Torontonian's please disregard this as it is just a joke (not sure if i needed to explain that but i don't want to make any Torontonian's cry)

[26.2]

Every poor person is white trailer trash and can't wait for you guys to buy the lot next to them so they can park their beat up cars near the property line.

No one wins Farrouck.
I think equating people who have to live in trailer parks, or have a tough income and are are struggling as trailer park trash, or those that live in the north as "red neck", is wrong.  These are all sweeping generalizations that many of us all make.  I see many kids today who have had every opportunity squander that opportunity and, like wise, new arrivals, seize the opportunities and make the most of what was offered.  It is difficult  to judge about opportunities. I think today's kids are too spoiled.  Guilty here.
I was always envious of those that came from small towns.  So many left small towns for work or education.  But you could always go back [w/e, holidays, retirement.]  There were always people you knew , local gossip, etc.  I grew up in the suburbs.  There is not a sole I know in the neighbourhood now. You get a feeling of a sense of loss.  I have heard that with rising energy costs there might be a renewal of town and village living. 
Hoping to get some sun on my neck this w/e .

[Larry]

Pfm is right. Nobody born in this country can complain and it is unacceptable to live in trailer parks. But I guess every country has its "weeds". We came fairly late in life to Canada, we went to school (after being university graduates in Europe) in a different language, no big wages, lots of sacrifice, and succeeded here. I do not see why people born here would not do better than us. Being poor is different than being white trash. However, if you really want to, you can change your life. We just have to want that. It's not easy though. It is easier to live in a trailer, no mortgage, no property taxes, no worries, right?
Larry