Ontario Tax Sale Property Forum
Tax Sale Forum => Announcements => Topic started by: worldjohn on June 27, 2013, 08:24:39 PM
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On the 17 C Lane, Fishers Glen property ( the cottage near the lake) there were two bidders. The highest winning bid was over $60,000 and second place was mine at $20,000. If the winner is here (or someone knows him) and you would like to buy my bid you could save a twenty thousand dollars. Or if you like, I would be willing to pay you to not continue with your purchase.
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I am Mountainman.
Would it not cost you at least $12,000 to have the high bidder step aside (20% of $60,000)? The high bidder would also probably want some profit. You would also have to pay the balance on your bid. If you are willing to pay this, why did you bid so low?
Mountainman has a question for the smart ones, what will occur if the high bidder agreed to step aside and the defaulter then paid the taxes? Would the deposit of the high bidder be lost?
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Mountainman has a question for the smart ones, what will occur if the high bidder agreed to step aside and the defaulter then paid the taxes? Would the deposit of the high bidder be lost?
This is a question that probably only Frank can answer. Treasurer's discretion? Keep in mind that if you pay the taxes and you were not someone entitled to notification, then you would not likely receive a lien in priority to all others for the amount that you paid. The 60k person should have double bid. It is a rather simple algorithm to determine where to place your second bid. In this case it would have been more than 20k, by my calculation, so the 60k bidder would have been defaulting to himself. You should read some of the posts from Netpred about these high bids that may have been entered by an owner or creditor with priority at law - essentially a minimum bid. A true mountain man is a one of a kind individual who would only bid those properties that others ignore. A mountain man bid should be just over taxes, plus one cent. Happy hunting! ;D
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to mountain man asking why I bid so low. I think the answer is fairly obvious. I would rather pay less than more. I was hoping to be the only bidder and I almost was, Had that one person not bid then I would have felt stupid paying so much more than I needed to. that is a feeling I want to avoid at all costs. I assume u are not the high bidder here, does anyone know who that high bidder is?
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Mountainman has a question for the smart ones, what will occur if the high bidder agreed to step aside and the defaulter then paid the taxes? Would the deposit of the high bidder be lost?
This is a question that probably only Frank can answer. Treasurer's discretion? Keep in mind that if you pay the taxes and you were not someone entitled to notification, then you would not likely receive a lien in priority to all others for the amount that you paid. The 60k person should have double bid. It is a rather simple algorithm to determine where to place your second bid. In this case it would have been more than 20k, by my calculation, so the 60k bidder would have been defaulting to himself. You should read some of the posts from Netpred about these high bids that may have been entered by an owner or creditor with priority at law - essentially a minimum bid. A true mountain man is a one of a kind individual who would only bid those properties that others ignore. A mountain man bid should be just over taxes, plus one cent. Happy hunting! ;D
I am Mountainman.
I have read so much here and Frank is the wisest by far. Frank, please tell me what will happen to the deposit of the high bidder when the delinquent one pays the taxes? Will the deposit be lost? If so, why would the higher one take the risk to please worldjohn.
I am Mountainman, but I am not stupid. I read everything here.
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Highest tender loses his $12,000 deposit and pays Worldjohn $8,000 for his bid. Deed is prepared in the name or Company etc. as the highest tender chooses.
Worldjohn makes some cash and the highest tender pays $4o,ooo instead of $60,000.
James Township opening this week was similar. Highest tender was $32,579 and 2nd was $8,666
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Sorry, I forgot to add that Mountainman is missing the point. The highest tender has an opportunity to save some money . His intent is not to please Worldjohn.
Worldjohn submitted a good tender. There is nothing wrong if he is able to help someone reduce their costs.
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Worldjohn is seeking out the high bidder - good move. When I go to an opening I write down the names of every bidder in a ring bound book so that I have a history to use in situations like this. At some openings they will spell the names of every individual that bid, which can be valuable in future sales. Some municipalities such as Trent Hills and Sudbury post the names of every individual submitting a bid, on their website after the sale. I was not interested in Norfolk so I do not have the name of the high bidder, however, the treasurer just might surprise you by giving you the name, address, and phone number of the high bidder. The treasurer stands to gain a windfall 12k which his budget may appreciate. If someone sent me the name of the high bidder by private message I might just be able to get in touch with that individual. We do not like to post the names of individuals on this site. If the high bidder was a Corporation then the name is enough to do a corporate search and come up with an address and phone number.
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I am Mountainman.
Mountainman does not miss the point. Mountainman read everything here carefully. The question that Mountainman has is not answered.
In this transaction, the first bidder must fail to deliver on the tender. The deposit is then gone to the collector. After the deposit is gone, the owner comes and pays to the collector. The sale is no longer and worldjohn does not own the lands, but so too is the deposit of the first bidder gone to the collector. The first bidder has lost the deposit, the owner has the lands, and wordjohn has the return of deposit.
I wait for the answer.
Thank you.
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If the highest tender walks away he loses his deposit and Worldjohn is then contacted by the Municipality as the 2nd highest tender.
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I am Mountainman.
I know this of what you speak. I read this and much more here.
I ask of what if owner delivers taxes to collector before worldjohn is new owner? Then collector keeps deposit of the high man, owner keeps property and worldjohn is returned deposit. If Mountainman is correct, why does high man take risk to lose everything to help worldjohn? That is my question. Please speak those who know the answer, but first know the question.
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Mountainman, you may recall that Norfolk County had a tax sale on May 1 of this year and there was posting discussion regarding their procedure. Now that I think of it the discussion may have been mainly by private posts of senior members. At any rate only 2 properties were bid upon since the others were redeemed, some the day of the sale. Both of the properties bid upon were redeemed after the sale, so everyone wasted their time and money. Norfolk would not be able to keep the deposit because they inform owners that they will accept the cancellation amount following the sale, and they did in both cases at their first sale on May 1, 2013. You are a mountainman, think of the ramifications if mortgagees become aware that they can wait until after the sale to decide to redeem. Worldjohn is bidding like a true mountainman, with a low bid on a property that does not attract the crowds. Way to go Worldjohn. As mountainwoman Wendy stated "I like to steal them" - well said.
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I am Mountainman.
You are one of the wise ones, but you still not know the question.
What of the problem when the owner pays the tax only after the high man has lost his money to the collector and before worldjohn makes quest to collector?
That is the question.
This is the answer.
The high man is now a poor man and a not happy man. The owner is the owner, and making fool of the high man. And worldjohn is returned deposit by collector. And the story happened because the high man was to help worldjohn.
Mountainman know about void and voidable. Mountainman not stupid. Sometimes Mountainman is high man.
Mountainman make visit with collector.
Mountainman happy.
Frank is wisest one. Frank knows of what Mountainman speaks.
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I think I know what mountainman is talking about. Firstly deals like this are dependent on people being honourable and trustworthy. I have integrity and if a deal fell apart I would not keep the high bidders money. Secondly if the owner redeems before the final payment is made by the bidder all deposits are returned. No one would lose. (this rarely happens anyways) thirdly, once the treasurer accepts the final payment the deal is done and the owner can no longer redeem the property (am I correct or can the owner redeem up until the deed is completed?). I think there is very little risk but if the people involved in the deal don't trust each other they can always sign contracts.
But if mountain man is talking about the period of time where the high bidder lets his deposit be taken and until the time second bidder pays, well I would obviously arrange to make my payment the same or next day first thing in the morning so there is no chance for the owner to redeem in that small time period. (and how unlikely is that the owner would wait exactly two weeks after the tax sale to redeem.) I think that covers mountain mans question.
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I am Mountainman.
You are wiser than appears. You know the question, but not the answer.
The collector awaits me.
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You sound more like a caveman than a mountainman.
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The answer is that the high bigger and second bidder would time it so that nothing like that could happen. And in the one in a million chance it did happen, then ethically the treasurer should give the high bidder the deposit back.
are you the high bidder? Yes or no
I asked the treasurer for the amounts and names of the bidders and she just sent me the amounts.
does anyone know the name of the high bidder?
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I am Mountainman.
The cost is the highlands of the Mountainman. You know of what I speak. You are wiser than appears.
But first, you must tell me, void or voidable? Speak to the one you call C##per. You know of what I speak. Mountainman is not stupid. Embrance, but do not fear Mountainman. Rejoice in knowing all.
Mountainman dwells not in caves, but in the hills to the west of the first paper communication. It is the truth, number of the greatest. I say no more. The wisest will know.
Mountainman travels to the valley to teach, but few valley people learn.
Mountainman speaks the truth, but few understand. Worldjohn understands some, but not all. Call the one I ask, but before the high sol after the day of birth, but not later, the collector awaits Mountainman.
I speak only then and only if the answer is correct and in public.
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I think mountainman has a legitimate question and concern. And I think g2020 has answered the question in the very beginning - Treasurer's discretion! The municipality has the right to keep your deposit should the highest bidder default after 14 days, and even if the property gets redeemed before the 2nd highest bidder comes in and takes over the title. If that happens unfortunately, you may still fight to get your deposit back if the judge sympathizes. I tend to think municipalities would not do that, after all they are not in the business to make money by keeping your deposit. But you never know.
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I am Mountainman.
You know the question, but not the answer.
Tell me this, void or voidable?
Tell me this, will valley collector have sympathy for Mountainman who not pay his obligation?
Tell me this, will valley collector not feast on new harvest?
Tell me this, will valley judge have sympathy for Mountainman who not pay his obligation?
Tell me this, will valley lawyer not barter large with Mountainman with no certainty of the tides?
Tell me this, in or out?
Tell me this, fortune or misfortune?
Tell me this, using valley speak, void or voidable?
Worldjohn, do as I say and ask the one I speak of - he will know.
There is not 3 revolutions of the orb until Mountainman visits the collector to make good the obligation.
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One other thing you might want to consider - this sounds an awful lot like collusion. Can the results of a sale be set aside if the bidders have engaged in collusion so that less is paid for the property than the fair value? Before you go down this road, you might want to talk to a lawyer.
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I am Mountainman.
You are wise new one - and coming soon to the answer.
Read the words of the valley people who make the rules. The word "fraud" has no place in the Mountain regions but does in the valley. Seek out the words and find the word I speak of.
There is another word that I shall not speak of but gives the question, void or voidable?
From that word does arise the discretion of the collector that many speak of here. Find that that word and ponder the meaning.
Again, void or voidable?
There are but two, and slightly more, revolutions until the collector is made whole.
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jt raises a very good point, especially if the treasurer is party to the collusion that effectively takes money from the person losing their property. That is the nice thing about this blog - different points of view. Pfm1010 once raised the issue about helping your competition. His view was that by helping the high bidder you are helping your competion and it would be better to let him suffer. The fact is that the property is assessed at 57k and the high bid was 60k. Left the way it is, the owner gets a very fair price, and the competition takes a beating. Different points of view. Bravo! As I mentioned before, double bidding (putting in two bids yourself, appropriately spaced) can on rare occasions be a good strategy, and there is no collusion.
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You are wise, elder one. I have watched from my den in the Mountains to the west as you have made your journeys. To the west of the water where the written paper first crossed. Soon, I will go back. But only 2 revolutions left.
Beware some of the wise. They speak twice and only to make great reward. The truths are not easy to find. Be assured, Mountainman speaks only the truth, but the truth that you must find. I show the path, but not the gold.
Look closer at the written rules and ponder, void or voidable? Those words do not appear, but those words are the question. You must find the gold yourselves. Mountainman is not false.
Worldjohn, is Mountainman wrong to barter twice or thrice, to sow the seeds that harvest more?
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Fair value? No kidding. You are coming to the wrong place. Ain't we people here supposed to cheer when somebody wins a taxsale a penny over but still significantly lower than the market?
"fraud" is also overstated in here. It's all about tactic, people. The Act does not prevent you from putting in two bids; the Act can't stop you from surrendering your winning bid and taking over somebody else's. Those who are morally high-standard-ed should think why they are interested in taxsale in the first place - taking away properties from those who are "unfortunate".
To mountainman, first of all, can you stop that "I am Mountainman" in the beginning of each every of your post? Your forum name tells it. And I think we've all gotten it by far your name is "mountainman" although some people had gotten it wrong by calling you "caveman" in the beginning ;D. Secondly, yes, there is risk for doing what worldjohn suggested. But wouldjohn also said it the chance for the property being redeemed after 14 days and before the 2nd comes in is slim. So if you are the highest bidder and you wanna save some money, talk to worldjohn directly and privately to work out a deal that's mutually beneficial. One suggestion may be, since worldjohn is in it for money as well (of course he/she deserves it for what he/she does), he/she may compensate partially for your loss of deposit if that rare incident happens.
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My apology to mountainman. You posted while I was still typing. I withdraw what I wrote in the beginning of the last par of my previous post.
I have nothing but compliment this time. Finally we have a poet on the forum.
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Jayz - I agree with you that the act does not prevent you from putting in two bids. G2020 is correct - there is no collusion here because you can't have collusion with yourself. I'm not sure that I agree with your statement - "the Act can't stop you from surrendering your winning bid and taking over somebody else's". At this point, there is arguably collusion - if you do a quick canlii search for "tax sale" and collusion, you will find a number of cases that suggest that collusion is grounds for overturning a tax sale result. You are allowed to withdraw your bid, but it is the agreement with another bidder that might create a problem. When the two high bidders enter into an agreement that says that one of them will withdraw their bid and cash is changing hands, it sounds to me like collusion/bid rigging.
Here is the definition of bid rigging from the competition bureau:
Bid-rigging occurs when two or more persons agree that, in response to a call for bids or tenders, one or more of them will:
not submit a bid;
withdraw a bid; or
submit a bid arrived at by agreement.
http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/eng/03152.html
I'm not trying to take the moral highroad here - just pointing out the possibility the land owner might challenge the sale. Maybe this is an unlikely possibility, but I think it is a risk nonetheless. Maybe the risk is minimal enough to be worth the possibility of the 20k savings.
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The new one is fast approaching the truth, Do not stop now new one, for you are close.
But look not yet at the rule of the valley judge. Seek instead the rule maker himself.
The words were chosen for a purpose.
The question remains, void or voidable?
The new one, you are working hard and learning well.
You have learned of these words, in the place where I go.
It is not here but where I sometimes preach.
No doubt you are in disbelief.
The cost is great, the gold awaits.
What is left is your ability to show.
So show it now, go back to the rules themselves.
This is the truth.
For I am
Mountainman
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Just to follow up on jt's thread. Yes, mountainman's too, but specifically the aspect of overturning a tax sale and voidable proceedings. I once bought a block of landlocked waterfront near downtown Collingwood. I was the high bidder at 20k and the only other tender was for 10k. I was approached by the second high tenderer, who was a young solicitor who had done his thesis on Tax Sales and at the time was buying tax sale property full time. The second high tenderer had a rather complex proposal as opposed to the simple assignment envisioned by worldjohn, and standard at the time. The 10k bidder gave me an agreement of purchase and sale for 13k, conditional upon him being the successful tax sale purchaser. This way the treasurer is not involved since the tax deed is being engrossed to the actual bidder. I defaulted and purchased from the second high. It took me years to really appreciate the methodology, but I now do. The treasurer was not asked to do anything. I defaulted and had a clear audit trail for CRA to scrutinize my loss. The second high bidder had a recorded sale for easy scrutiny by CRA of his profit. Today there would also be HST clarification so that there would be no future recourse by CRA on registrant/non-registrant liabilities. The gain was split equally with both me and the second high ahead by 3k, but I received a current 4k loss and a deferred 7k gain. Having said all this I would not do it today. In the last few months there have been too many redemtions of the good properties after the sale. I would bid an amount such that I would be so excited to have gotten the property that my only focus would be to get it closed ASAP, rather than lose it. Of course I am scaling back and in the next twelve months my goal is to get no more than one property, so I am very selective, and very very well researched. Hopefully this will help some of you to think through the cost/benefit of buying/selling tenders. Jt has been very helpful, and his reference to CANLII is important. I welcome him/her aboard with a well deserved applaud.
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Folks, you have to watch your butt on these deals. I have been told that some municipalities will let their lawyer hold all the bids for days & days (almost 2 weeks the first time this came to my attention), to make his informed final decision that the perceived top bidder had properly won the property, and will then, and only then, allow the deed to be issued & registered. I was SO GLAD to be 6th in line at this particular bid opening, the final terms of which were only announced after all bids were opened.
As well, I've been told that a late redemption is good right up to the second that the deed is registered, so you can be on the threshold of getting the deed in hand, only to be told "sorry"! After checking with other municipal offices, I made it a priority to be ready to close the deal immediately after the bids were opened, and, after that, never bid at a municipality where this practice was standard. I also refused to bid where the staff were unwilling to issue a deed within 24 hours, although I tried for same day.
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Oh, and while you are taking jt's advice and doing CANLII searches, take a look at the Wasaga beach court case if you think that an owner will take his loss without a fight. In this case the Town of Wasaga Beach lost several million in total damages. Just one parcel was settled in court and the rest, including the large parcel that I purchased, were settled out of court, and the treasurer lost his job. When you eventually get a big one on the line you have to be squeaky clean - I was, and I got to keep a small fortune in this court case.
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so mountainman if you are the high bidder you have made it very frustrating to try and save you $20,000. Perhaps you are very wealthy and don't care about money. Judging from the way bid its seems to be the case. You seem to be worried about the risk. there is a risk to everything the and one must weigh the cost verses the potential. If you do an accurate cost/benefit analysis you will see that In this case the risk is very very low and the benefit very high. Several others have done this same deal and none have been voided!
Your first your concern was the owner coming to redeem but we explained how very unlikely that is. Your next your concern is whether our private deal could make the tax sale voidable. Technically it is possibly voidable if it were found out that we made this deal but if it were voided it everyone would get their deposit back so no loss and no risk. In fact that might even be a good thing because I bet you are wishing you didn't bid that much and could get your deposit back. But the big question is; how would the treasurer ever know in the first place? If we did it discretely 'the collector' would never know and even if there was suspicion it would be very hard for them to actually prove collusion took place.
the only actual risk comes from this very public discussion we are having here. so mountain man, the very smart thing to do is have a private conversation where I could explain how this could be done to minimize the risk. However you have made that very difficult because you haven't joined this group so I cant send you a private message. and you have made no attempt to contact me privately. It has been frustrating trying to decipher your riddles and trying to get you to contact me because obviously the way to make this low risk and not voided is to discuss this privately. My email is worldjohn@hotmail.com use it!
I think most here including the smart ones would agree that your bid was much higher than necessary and that my proposal is a very good idea that you should consider more seriously. Now hurry up and contact me before there are too many more "rotations of our cosmic orb" or don't, if you think $20,000 should be thrown in the garbage instead of your bank account.
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Worldjohn
It would appear to me that you are spinning your wheels. Unfortunately, you can't reason with the unreasonable. 8)
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LOL Frank yes it appears so. But since he thinks you are one of the "wise ones" maybe you stating it will make him realize he is being unreasonable and silly. I really wonder if he is actually the high bidder or someone just goofing around.
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How do you know (s)he's not the municipal treasurer, or their lawyer. I think (s)he's been playing you from the start.
Oh Oh!
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I know hes not the treasurer or the lawyer as those positions require a certain level of intelligence that simply was not evident in his ridiculous riddles. the highest bidder has now paid the treasurer ( $40,000 more than he needed to and about $10,000 more than its worth)