Setting tax sale rules straight?

[new_1]

Can we fix this Trap for good?!

Ive noticed that people still make serious mistakes by purchasing lands with crown liens, flood plans lots, contaminated lands, EP, no road access and etc..by accident . I know, I know   you would say its your responsibility to do home works.
OKEY!!!!! What about our governments responsibility to stop setting financial and emotional traps for its citizens by selling undeveloped lands.
I am really pissed off that municipality is hiding all dirt about their land for sale, by recovering its dirty money.
Here is my proposition, fellows: Lets organize group of activists especially if someone has or had this problem and maybe hire a lawyer to represent this in court before judge to stop municipality from selling dead horse land.
I know that there was one case in municipality back in 2001 when the highest bidder deposited $0.001(less than one cent) lower than 25% of his bid price and lost his bid in court.  The judge ruled in favour of the second highest bidder and the law has changed due to this precedent.
I think we can change at least some major rules, if not all of them.

Any propositions you are very welcome!!!

[Pfm1011]

First.. The one penny rule decision involved a member of this site. And it is completely correct. The law was not changed by the decision. It has always been in place and the treasurer was trying to break the rules.  The treasurer in that case should have been fired for wasting taxpayers money and the city's law firm should not have been paid as their advice was just to get  billable hours. At no time did the treasurer or the town have a legal leg to stand on the the A**holes still went to court instead of simply admitting they were wrong.

The rules are the rules.. if we let a penny slide, should we let $1000 slide?. The minute you break a rule it snowballs and then there is no limit and eventually a court will rule that no deposit is required at all.

Let a treasurer "interpret" the rules and you can expect corruption and mayhem. Next the treasurer will start picking number 3 bidder as he is his brother and use the excuse of the planned use is better for the town or simply scoop the land for the town without a taxsale

As per the bad land. First ..as in all things in life it is buyer beware..If you are stupid enough to buy something without research then you deserve to get burned. You can find out about bad land in a matter of minutes in most cases...there is a new tool called the internet.. Additionally get off your ass and go to the land ..If you see 100000 tires..you may suspect there may be a problem, barrels in the ground..same thing

Also the town cannot warn buyers of any specific problems.. The surplus from the sale goes to the property owner and should the town place a warning on the land, then the owner can sue the city for damages as they caused a loss in value on the sale.

Many towns do place generic warnings in advertisements re: not responsible for contamination or land locked etc..

Very few people actually get burned and they are A: greedy, B: lazy,  C: stupid or D: all of the above

When looking at tax sale property always presume it is worthless crap and a landmine..then research to prove otherwise.  Always ask..why are the owners walking away from the land?? 

If you bid blind..be prepared to walk from the deposit  and then go check the land on the way to delivering the full payment...  Even land I know is clean, I walk again prior to making the final payment

[Pfm1011]

Do you have a specific example?   did you get burned?   Judging from the writing  g2020 is back

[g2020]

It is not I. In this case I agree 100% with the informative and very well thought out reply of pfm1011. The essence of what pfm1011 is saying is, assume that all tax sale property is worthless until proven otherwise. Don't blame others if you are too fat ass lazy to do your own due diligence. Bravo! 

[Moe]

I am not biased, but I have to say that I agree with PFM's views. Btw I never got burned as I never bought any tax sale property
Final word: Research, research, research

[worldjohn]

I understand Pfm's view on this.  If this game were too easy  too many new people would join.  But I have to side with New 1's general idea on this.   I am tired of wasting hours of my valuable time researching a property that turns out to be worse than crap.  Real estate agents are bound by rules of full disclosure and Municipalities should be as well.  A small group of us should lobby the government to add an amendment to the municple code that requires treasurers to disclose any known enviromental hazards and crown liens. Simple.  A letter and petition would be more cost effective than a court case.

[Pfm1011]

amendment to the municple code that requires treasurers to disclose any known enviromental hazards and crown liens. Simple.  A letter and petition would be more cost effective than a court case.

This would even be worse as buyer would assume that the land was clear when infact it is dirty but the town did now know. More people would be screwed by dirty land and buried barrels as they would have a  false sense of security...and then the town would get sued constantly as everyone would use it as an out. Even if the town didn't know..within a month we would have lawyers claiming the towns staff were willfully blind.

  This is no different then Power of sale..BUYER BEWARE.   As a taxpayer I do not want my town taking any position of risk .. additionally lets not forget, its not the towns property , they are selling land in order to collect taxes,  Under no circumstances should they have any liability for anything..

Should the town tell me there is UFFI, should they tell me there is mold, pipes leaking, carpet is stained, old sandwich in fridge  etc etc?? . No town will touch this and absolutely no politician will modify a law that shifts liability to a town so that us vultures can profit...  Disclose crown liens so that we don't have to do title searches...  Maybe we can get the towns to guarantee the dishwasher and stove work and fix the roof leak too..would like the house painted and the garden needs weeding   Lets get the treasurer to toss a case of beer in the fridge and a fruit  basket for the wives...

As in all things in life.....Caveat Emptor


And a that  just  got  me another minus karma..

[Dave2]

This would even be worse as buyer would assume that the land was clear when infact it is dirty but the town did now know. More people would be screwed by dirty land and buried barrels as they would have a  false sense of security...and then the town would get sued constantly as everyone would use it as an out. Even if the town didn't know..within a month we would have lawyers claiming the towns staff were willfully blind.

 As in all things in life.....Caveat Emptor

And a that  just  got  me another minus karma..

I have to side with PFM 1001 on this one.   The fact that there is some "real" risk and expense means that you have to put some skin in the game or you will get burned.  I have enough problems with the pro's on this board and others like "bigfoot" who squash me regularly.  But at least their pricing is generally realistic.  

IF it means I have to pass on some industrial properties or former gas stations so be it.  Personally I also have the self imposed limitation that I will not evict little old ladies.  But in spite of that there is lots of opportunity out there.

Yes I have put in time and expense and I have had both good and bad luck.  But I cannot argue that at the end of the day I have done all right in spite of the challenges.   I would just like to say thanks to all the members of this board who helped me get there.  

The problem I have now is deciding what to keep personally.  
Also finding a way to get proper resale price particularly when people realize that you are going to do a flip but that will come.  When push comes to shove being a low cost provider is a big help.    

I have even met others who are more successful then me.   I will be back in the market at some point.  Some thing about winning a realistically tax sale priced property by less then $100 when the bids are over $20,000.  It's even more satisfying when you have a senior local real estate agent that your are discussing resale of the property with who pulled the property history and who basically asks you how the hell did you get it at that price.  

  In the interim its other members of this board's turn.    

[netpred]

I too agree with the majority. If it was easy and risk free, the prices would go up. There are too many people doing this without assessing the risks or doing their due diligence thus exerting an upward pressure on price.

On the other hand, what if you got lucky and discovered a cottage that nobody knew about on an island that you purchased? Would you complain to the municipality and ask for your money back? You pay your money, you take your chances. Bid appropriately and you should not lose if you have done your due diligence.

[Frank]

Can we fix this Trap for good?!

Ive noticed that people still make serious mistakes by purchasing lands with crown liens, flood plans lots, contaminated lands, EP, no road access and etc..by accident . I know, I know  you would say its your responsibility to do home works.
OKEY!!!!! What about our governments responsibility to stop setting financial and emotional traps for its citizens by selling undeveloped lands.
I am really pissed off that municipality is hiding all dirt about their land for sale, by recovering its dirty money.
Here is my proposition, fellows: Lets organize group of activists especially if someone has or had this problem and maybe hire a lawyer to represent this in court before judge to stop municipality from selling dead horse land.
I know that there was one case in municipality back in 2001 when the highest bidder deposited $0.001(less than one cent) lower than 25% of his bid price and lost his bid in court.  The judge ruled in favour of the second highest bidder and the law has changed due to this precedent.
I think we can change at least some major rules, if not all of them.

Any propositions you are very welcome!!!

I just gave PFM an applause for his comments...he is right of course. 

First of all, get your facts straight when you are talking about the 1 penny case.  The Legislation requires the bidder to round up...it says, quite clearly, that the deposit must be 'at least' .    The Legislation has not been amended, it has simply been reaffirmed by the courts, and now municiplities are paying heed.  The Treasurer should have been fired, and lawyer sued, and the Town Council should have been un-elected.  Not only did the successful purchaser win the case, but had his court costs covered as well...that tells you how wrong the town was.

Secondly, Municipalities are simply trying to collect taxes, not do property clean-up (which is good it that is the net result).  The properties in question are private lands, and the Municipalities have no power to go on these lands to do a full environmental assessment.  This is strictly a 'buyer beware' situation, and you must do as much homework as possible prior to submitting your bid, and you can still get burned by what you do not find. 

[worldjohn]

I understand and agree with most of your points.  However I think its a matter of basic ethics.  If the municipality KNOWS about crown leins or contamination or health hazards, they should be required to disclose it and save people time and energy.  If they dont know, they dont have to research or even try and find out and this would not increase any legal liability for the townships it might even lessen it.  Buyer beware still stands.  Treasurers will still give all the warnings for people to do their own research.  As is stands some townships disclose that there is contanimation or leins some dont.   Treasurers who dont disclose and knowingly throw out these traps have weak personal morals.

[Frank]

If the municipality KNOWS about crown leins or contamination or health hazards, they should be required to disclose it and save people time and energy. 

I strongly disagree.  If a Treasurer discloses that there might be contamination on a particular land parcel...how does he know...did he trespass to find out...this is private property.  Furthermore, if he says there is on one piece and doesn't comment on the others, is he putting himself (or the town) in a position of thereby confirming that the other properties in the sale are all clean...how could he possibly know. 

Crown liens could be registered on a property right up until the moment that the tax deed is transferred.  How can any Treasurer state positively that there are no liens on a particular piece.  He simply can't...nor is he required to.

Legal advice that I received...and followed...was; if you suspect, or even if you know for certain - don't say anything since it will bind you, not necessarily on the property that you are trying to be up-front on, but on the others being sold.  People will assume that your silence is golden...then sue you later when it isn't. 

[Pfm1011]

Treasurers will comment on absolute fact but nothing less then carved in a stone fact .. Take Belleville  Two pieces side by Side

Roll No. 12 08 040 125 00800 0000; 621 Dundas St. E Belleville; PIN
40611-0009(LT) Part lots 11 to 13 Concession Broken Front Thurlow; Part
lot 13 Concession 1 Thurlow; Part Road Allowance between Concession
1 & Concession Broken Front Thurlow; Part Water Lot lying in front of
lots 11 & 12 Concession Broken Front Thurlow; designated Parts 1, 2, 4, 5,
6, 7, 8, 9 & 10 Plan 21R3638; Subject to QR68198; Belleville; County of
Hastings. Note: this property is subject to Ministry of Environment Order
#2457-6WDSUG and any amendments thereto. File 09-05Minimum Tender Amount: $ 144,576.51

This land is the former Bakelite plant and is covered in PCB's , asbestos and multiple other contaminates . There is a MOE order against the land and the Treasurer is stating facts in his disclosure.  He does not state contaminated, only states there is an outstanding order.


This is just the tip of the iceberg http://www.thebarrieexaminer.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?archive=true&e=1326690


The fun begins on the second piece


Roll No. 12 08 040 125 00300 0000; Farley Ave. Belleville; PIN 40611-
0008(LT) Part lot 11 Concession Broken Front Thurlow as in QR346214
(secondly); Belleville; County of Hastings. File 09-06
Minimum Tender Amount: $ 20,842.84


There is no comment about anything on this piece..  I believe this piece of land was formally the holding ponds  which Sinclair went to jail over. He drained the holding ponds full of PCBs into the bay of Quinte.  Then filled in the ponds. The MOE has never taken soil samples on site as sinclair wont allow the MOE on the property to test. The Engineer involved was charged and fined for forging tests stating it was clean.

  The treasurer made no statement about this land as he cannot say anything  as the land has not been PROVEN to be dirty . Even if this is not the former ponds is is immediately downstream of the toxic site and is mostly swamp.. ..the land is  as dirty as the day is long but if the treasurer said anything he could be sued.  Since there is no MOE order, the treasurer is silent.

 It took less then ten minutes to find the whole story on the bakelite plant and I'm not a local.  Any party reading the advertisement already has read about the MOE order on the adjacent land which should sent up warning flags to everybody.  A simple drive by the land and you have to know to run away. PCB,s  are the among most dangerous contaminates on the planet . probably second only to radioactive waste. Even minute traces and the land is screwed.

Someone paid 22K for this piece but at least they used a corporation and I have no idea what they are thinking


In regards to announcing crown liens. If the treasurer says there are crown liens on a piece and there is not as they have been cleared, I'm suing the treasurer for lost profits as I would have bid on the land had I not been incorrectly told about the liens. I have seen a few small towns where they warned about crown liens but I actually think the treasurer made a mistake for, as Frank said, they will have to disclose them forever as any future silence is essentially stating  the land is clear.  "No news  is good news"




Also towns will give hints  There is 6 taxsale ads in the gazette that day..5 said

   Except as follows, the municipality makes no representation regarding
the title to or any other matters relating to the lands to be sold.
Responsibility for ascertaining these matters rests with the potential
purchasers.


Bellevilles ad..

Except as follows, the municipality makes no representation regarding
the title, contamination, crown interests or any other matters relating to
the lands to be sold. Responsibility for ascertaining these matters rests
with the potential purchasers


Ad for Grimsby where there is 300K on one of the buildings

Except as follows, the municipality makes no representation regarding
the title, crown interests or any other matters relating to the land to
be sold. Responsibility for ascertaining these matters rests with the
potential purchasers

I dont know how much more help they can give to us.

[new_1]

Bravooo  everyone!!!
Sound like half of this group work for municipality, not against them  .
So, everybody agreed with Tax sale law so far, not even 1 major change is require whatsoever!!!?
Guys, municipality made our lives like a hell so far..., and it?s OK, let them do it for another 100 years their louse job.

Not even one suggestion for the change?

Cheers guys.

[netpred]

Bravooo  everyone!!!
Sound like half of this group work for municipality, not against them  .
So, everybody agreed with Tax sale law so far, not even 1 major change is require whatsoever!!!?
Guys, municipality made our lives like a hell so far..., and it?s OK, let them do it for another 100 years their louse job.

Not even one suggestion for the change?

Cheers guys.

Ok, so I was going to reply with some smart sarcastic remark but I won't. So let's be serious. A number of responses, including two from the most senior and respected members of this board, have provided you with a well-reasoned response to your proposition. You can disagree if you wish, but I don't think that it is necessary to disrepect these members. Would you consider for a moment that these people might know a bit more about tax sales than you and I?

As far as I am concerned I really don't care about potential liability that a municipality may have by disclosing information. In this game, it is about finding the deal. To be perfectly honest, I think that with the internet and the resources that are now available, a lot of the risk of tax sales has been removed. Personally, I find the best deals in those municipalities that provide no information on the internet and where good old fashion work is need to find any information. Most bidders are lazy. In those sales, there is very little competition and properties can be had for very reasonable bids. It is where everything is readily available where prices go crazy. It has gotten to the point where I basically ignore any featured properties on OTS or properties in municipalities like Trent Hills where everything is posted. Basically, you either have to dig for the deals or you might as well go MLS.

My 2 cents for what it's worth.