Stumped

[jtown]

Hey everyone,

I am new to this site and figured i would see if anyone else here can shed some light on an interesting situation i have run into.


I am a interested in a certain piece of tax sale land, its completely free of any and all liens of any kind, and no other restricting terms aside from one small little detail. i was told there was an adverse possession of the far eastern side of the lot with a hunting cabin that has been being used by the neighbours relatives for the last 13 years, its not a huge concern as the option of severing the lot and possibly selling to the neighbour still exists if they were in fact interested.

Is there any other way to remove this cabin as i would prefer to mark the land as private property in the event i have the winning bid so i can avoid selling land that people are knowingly hunting on.

Im unsure as to how i should proceed.

Any light?

Jtown

[worldjohn]

adverse possession can be complicated but here are the important guidelines


1. In Ontario the key time period is 10 years. They have to demonstrate absolute, continuous, uninterrupted, open use during a period of 10 years.
2. The property must be in the Registry system, not Land Titles.

What township is property in , as this can help to determine the answer

[g2020]

Netpred, as usual, provides excellent advice and guidance. With respect to " if there was less than 10 years of the adverse possession before the property went into Land Titles, the claim would not be valid". would you, or anyone provide the statute, or case, that was the basis for this rule.
Thanks.
P.S.  I am new to this - how do you do you create a quote from another post?.

[26.2]

I am new to this - how do you do you create a quote from another post?.

I'm a little shaky on adverse possession but I think I can help in quoting a post.

When you enter reply...just above the rely box.  There are a number of tool buttons.  Bottom row second from the right, the icon looks likes comic book quote balloon.  When you click it, the quotation brackets appear in the reply box.  Than all you have to do is cut and past.

Some members...maybe just pfm like to just cut and past quotes in blue type.

Thanks for the important info g2020

OK...another question regarding adverse possession.  Lets say someone has been using someone else's property for 11 years...storing crap, a garden, what ever.  The real owner can't kick him off...adverse possession.  The squatter still doesn't have title and the adverse possession can't be transferred...Right or wrong??  I think right.  Squatters don't have a snowballs chance of attaining title.  

[Pfm1011]

I stand to be corrected but a hunting cabin that is not fenced in or secured would have no claim for adverse possession. They would have to swear that no other party EVER  entered the building in the last ten years which they could not swear as they were not living there.

Occasionally trespassing and  poaching on someone elses land does not give you the right to seize the land

If you win the bid, tell them to get stuffed.  The onus is on them to prove the claim  and they would get killed in court . At very best they could claim the actual cabin but would have to repel in by helicopter to get to it and they cannot claim any land around the building. You can charge them with trespess if they step out of the building and poaching if they shoot anything on your land

[Dave2]

If you win the bid, tell them to get stuffed.  The onus is on them to prove the claim  and they would get killed in court . At very best they could claim the actual cabin but would have to repel in by helicopter to get to it and they cannot claim any land around the building. You can charge them with trespess if they step out of the building and poaching if they shoot anything on your land

I tend to take a little different approach then many of the board members around here.  I prefer to avoid major disputes with my neighbours and try to seek common ground.  It comes from a philosophy of my dad when he observed that "Wars are easier to start then to stop"

Any tax sale property you buy is rarely perfect.  I am reminded of the old joke about Henry Ford going to heaven. 

"Henry Ford dies and goes to Heaven.  Upon arriving he immediately starts complaining about how inefficiently the place is being run.  It gets so bad that God Himself intervenes, at which point Henry begins taking God to task over His design of woman.  "Your invention is the most flawed work of engineering I ever saw.  There is too much front end protrusion, the rear end wobbles too much, it chatters at high speeds, and the primary intake is too close to the exhaust."

"As may be, Mr. Ford," says God, wryly amused, "but more men are riding My product than ever rode yours." 

Lets assume you get lucky and get the land.  I am not certain of your intended  use of it but can you spare it for the 2-3 weeks during hunting season.  Tell your neighbour you want him to lease it so that you have no liability.  You also may want to use the cabin  for a guest during the off season but will keep it in good shape.  Sometimes I think some of us here want to get into a fight too much. 

Once he signs that lease he in effect acknowledges you own it.  IF he tells you to go to hell then there is always the stick. 

Comments Legal Beagles. 

[baller50]

Thanks for the light!

I spent alot of time looking around and found many similar pieces of information.
Turns out the cabin is in pretty bad shape and would need to be removed regardless, upon purchase at the expense of the "Owner"..... now just to find out once and for all who that would be in this case.
There is one positive side to all of this, there is no right of way to the cabin at all.
It seems for every loop hole i find there is another one leading through that one, I'm getting the brain pain from the assortment of questions that are being answered with more questions.

I must say though.... the legislation is pretty straight forward here in Ontario so i can't complain, the information was all relatively simple to get after a little bit of repitition, but man oh man!

Oh, I almost forgot to mention...does anyone know a good place to start when applying for re-assessment of a property?

Cheers,

Jtown

MPAC... just a phone call away and you can try to reassement

[Bruce289]

Oh, I almost forgot to mention...does anyone know a good place to start when applying for re-assessment of a property?

If what you're asking is how to have a piece of land that currently has a building reclassified as vacant land, I would think that you would need to apply for a demolition permit. Once completed, you would by default have vacant land.

Cheers... Bruce

[LarasDad]

I'll second baller's advice - MPAC.

I'm going thru a similar effort trying to get rural residential re-assessed as agricultural - they, MPAC, have been really slow to respond (over a year) so be prepared.

[Ronster]

Here is another idea for reducing your property taxes if the lot is larger and treed.

     "The Managed Forest Tax Incentive Program (MFTIP) is a voluntary program available to landowners who own four hectares or more of forest land, and who agree to prepare and follow a Managed Forest Plan for their property.
     Under the MFTIP, participating landowners have their property reassessed and classified as Managed Forest and taxed at 25 percent of the municipal tax rate set for residential properties.
     To participate in the MFTIP, landowners must agree to certain conditions including preparing and following a managed forest plan for their forest. The plan must be approved by an individual certified by the Ministry of Natural Resources (MNR) as a Managed Forest Plan Approver. The plan improves the owner's knowledge of the forest and increases the owner's participation in managing the forest. In turn, this helps to encourage the stewardship of Ontario's private forests."

[Frank]

good idea Ronster...however, look at both sides before you leap. 

I have an 87 acre bush in Muskoka.  To get it into the program, I have to prepare a five year management plan...and it would cost me about a grand to have that plan prepared by a certified individual (these are generally retired MNR staffers).  I only pay about $200 a year in taxes, so it would actually cost me  for the five years, and I would have conditions placed on my property...yuck. 

As another alternative, you can try to get the Conservation authority to declare your property as conservation lands, and in that case they would be exempt...yeah, exempt from you ever doing anything with it.

Here is another idea for reducing your property taxes if the lot is larger and treed.

     "The Managed Forest Tax Incentive Program (MFTIP) is a voluntary program available to landowners who own four hectares or more of forest land, and who agree to prepare and follow a Managed Forest Plan for their property.
     Under the MFTIP, participating landowners have their property reassessed and classified as Managed Forest and taxed at 25 percent of the municipal tax rate set for residential properties.
     To participate in the MFTIP, landowners must agree to certain conditions including preparing and following a managed forest plan for their forest. The plan must be approved by an individual certified by the Ministry of Natural Resources (MNR) as a Managed Forest Plan Approver. The plan improves the owner's knowledge of the forest and increases the owner's participation in managing the forest. In turn, this helps to encourage the stewardship of Ontario's private forests."

[Ronster]

Thanks Frank, I was looking at having the forest management but decided against it too...I don't like the idea of the MNR having involvement with my property either. 

good idea Ronster...however, look at both sides before you leap. 

I have an 87 acre bush in Muskoka.  To get it into the program, I have to prepare a five year management plan...and it would cost me about a grand to have that plan prepared by a certified individual (these are generally retired MNR staffers).  I only pay about $200 a year in taxes, so it would actually cost me  for the five years, and I would have conditions placed on my property...yuck. 

As another alternative, you can try to get the Conservation authority to declare your property as conservation lands, and in that case they would be exempt...yeah, exempt from you ever doing anything with it.