Collaberative Effort

[David1010]

Out of curiosity I've spent a couple of hours trying to find out what this South River property is.

Parcel 8509 Sec NS, Lot 11, n/s Ottawa Avenue, Plan M-2, Village of South River, District of Parry Sound

I'm usually pretty good at mining information out of the Internet, but this one has kind of got me stumped.  I really can't translate the legal description into an address.  Many townships post a tax sale package on their website, couldn't find anything.  I've used the MNR site http://www.lio.ontario.ca/ but the information for that area doesn't go any deeper than lot-concession number.  That gets me to the Township of Machar (http://www.machartownship.net/Machar-Sept10.pdf).  Lot 11 isn't anywhere near South Lake.  Matter of fact there is a hole in the map for South Lake.  After a very long process of follow this link and that link, I actually found the interactive map for South Lake (http://www.cgis.com/cpal/Default.aspx?Map=South%20River).  Duh, there at the bottom of the Home page, didn't scroll down far enough, just above the map image.  This map includes parcels, but they don't appear to translate into anything useful (see image).  The numbers appear to be a street/parcel number, but couldn't find a number 11.

Anyone have any input?  I'm more curious than serious.

 

[g2020]

Townships are divided up into lots and concessions, but that is not the type of lot that you are dealing with here. Land was further divided up into village lots, but here there were usually several lots with the same lot number, and they were distinguished from one another by being, for example, north or south of Gordon Street. Newer subdivisions of the lot and concession parcels, had unique lot numbers and had identification such as Lot 2 on Plan of Subdivision M1010. To see these plans you would normally go to the Land Registry Office. This is the hard way. You could also use the PIN which is now shown on every tax sale notice. You would then go to the applicable Land Registry office and find the property on the Property Index Map. Even though every parcel of land in Ontario now has a unique PIN, this procedure is almost as difficult, and still involves getting a plan or survey to get the actual dimensions. An easier, but costly procedure is to just sit at home, go on-line and buy the MPAC report which gives you a map, property description, dimensions, square footage of the house, when it was built, number of bedrooms and bathrooms, etc. and of course MPACs professional opinion of what is the fair market value of the property. The easiest, and cheapest way is to just wait a few days and go to the OTS site and they will have mapped out the property being sold on an air photo. For featured properties you can get the assessed value etc by going to the Tri-Target site for free, or the OTS site for an annual fee. If you are not familiar with an area then you can always do what I have done in the past - buy a professional appraisal which will cost you about the same price as the title search fee from OTS or Tri-Target. The margins today on the good parcels is so thin that you cannot afford to just "take a flyer" with a low tender and partial information. if you are just curious about South River then I would just wait a few days until it is on OTS.

[David1010]

Thanks for the explanation of what's going on with the address.  Still isn't that clear were to look for the parcel, as NS and n/s Ottawa Avenue doesn't tell me anything.  Big fan of the Roll number system, PIN numbers don't appear in many of the GIS data bases, but at least its a unique identifier.  Unfortunately neither of these appeared with the notice, Dec 8th Ontario Gazette.

I'll just wait for Tri-target or OTS to clean up the listing.

[Tri-Target]

We are just pulling this info now, we thought we would share the roll no. for this property, for anyone who may need it.

Here it is - 49 56 000 001 25400 0000

[David1010]

Thank you for that additional information.

Out of curiosity I matched up the Tri-target map to South River's map (http://www.cgis.com/cpal/Default.aspx?Map=South%20River).  Appears to be 18 Isabella Street.  Imagery shows multiple cars parked.  A Google search for the address came up with 2 commercial businesses at the address.  One having a unit number.

[g2020]

Great timely response Tri-target. I also have to complement you on how you handled the Springwater sale, from an information packet that is the best that I have ever seen, right through to the timely and very professional registration of my deed. Bravo!

[Tri-Target]

You're both very welcome!

G2020 - Thank you for your kind words; It's so nice to hear such positive feed back from our members - you have truly made our day! Congrats on your purchase!

[David1010]

Did anyone ever hear what the outcome of this tax sale was?

[ErnestBidder]

g2020:
  Not to pick on you, but I must take issue with the phrase "and of course MPACs professional opinion of what is the fair market value of the property". MPAC is owned by the municipalities of the province of Ontario, who supply all property info to MPAC. MPAC then, sometimes, enters that info into their database and uses it to send out supposed justifications for the wildly increasing property values they assign to other properties in that area. I have a number of problems with the whole proceedure:
1-The municipality sends sales data to MPAC, who massages it into some sort of furball software that magically spits out supposedly comparable properties to justify increasing the property value each year by truckloads.
2-The comparable properties, way more often than I find comfort with, are outlandishly more valuable than the subject property.
3-When you ask to see the list of comparables that was used in your case, they are never available because they are never recorded against your property.
4-When you insist on a list, you are given a new list that is not related to the old list, and they are still HUGELY over the value of your property, if not even moreso!
5-These over-inflated prices are used to set the new taxes.
6-If they mailed them to the wrong address, & you're so busy you don't realize they're missing, TOO BAD IF YOU MISSED THE APPEAL PERIOD!
7-MPAC will, if you are strenuous enough, come to your property, then ask you where all the missing amenities have gone.
8-The whole process strikes me a being incestuous.
9-New MPAC values are set every 4 years, apparently, and climb higher, even in a declining market.
10-The RE agents love it: tax rates are remaining stable, yet values are climbing, right alongside commissions.

[landbaronofthenorth]

Normally I do not respond unless I feel that I can add something of importance and instead continue to remain a ?lurker? 
However, this one struck a nerve and I can simply not resist the opportunity to bash MPAC.

I took the quote from g2020 to be ?tongue in cheek? and/or sarcastic and I do know whether he was intending to comment positively on the accuracy of MPAC?s assessment process. 

My experience with MPAC has been frustrating at best. I have had situations in the past where I have acquired property from an unrelated arm?s length party listed on MLS within one month of the valuation date which in my humble opinion is about as representative to fair market value as you can get. MPAC?s computer program came to a different conclusion and determined the value to be 25% higher than the price I paid. After spending a reasonable amount of time and effort (which should not have been necessary) the assessment was reduced, but was still above the arm?s length purchase price (which by definition should equal FMV). There is a point of diminishing returns, and the remaining difference was no longer worth pursuing further, but my experience in this particular situation illustrates the arrogance of some MPAC employees and their faith in their computer system.

I recognize that it is impossible to individually value every single property in Ontario, thus the requirement to use computer models. However, there needs to be a better screening process with respect to inordinate changes in values between assessment periods (e.g. if the increase in assessed value is more than xx% of the average increase for the same geographic area , some degree of human intervention should occur to determine if the increase is appropriate). 

The discrepancies are often exaggerated with respect to tax sale properties. There are reasons why someone will let a property go for a few thousand dollars of unpaid taxes when the MPAC assessed value is in the tens of thousands.  One obvious reason is that the MPAC assessed value is simply not appropriate. 

If anyone out there does think that MPAC values are representative of real value, I have a number of properties I would be willing to sell for a ?bargain? price of 50% to 75% of the current MPAC assessed value.

[ruok]

I have to agree. MPAC employees cannot ,or are not allowed to, think outside the box.There are too many variables involved to lump a group of properties under the same umbrella.(Residential or vacant lands) Although I have had extremely good success in the appeal process I would rather spend the time and effort in other ways.

[Frank]

At the risk of being lynched here.

I think that MPAC does a great job.  Now I will go and hide...if anyone wants to know how their systems work, just call them, they are more than willing to discuss.  They do not include non-arms length transactions, or forfeitures (ie. tax sales) in their computer modelling.  Unfortunately, they also do not include property condition, they have the information on what is built but they do not consider its condition...they can only look at sales of properties with similar features within the area. 

Not sure who commented that they get all their information from the Municipalities, but that is patently incorrect.   They do get as-built drawings from the building departments for new construction...information on demolitions and the like, but sales information comes directly from the Registry Office.   I've seen cases where people buy houses with all the contents included in the sales price...they usually do this to avoid paying sales tax on the value of the contents...however, those types of transactions tend to skew the  final numbers upwardly.   Talk to any homebuilder and they will tell you that new home buyers prefer to include 'extras' in the sales agreements rather than paying for them separately...they do this to increase the amount of mortgage they can obtain, however they inadvertently drive the final sales value higher and end up paying in spades based on the higher assessment values.

I'm sure that these comments will not earn me any free beer. 

[netpred]

Frank:

You are right - your comments won't get you a free beer. 

I think that the thing that bothers people about MPAC is the absolute reliance on their model. MPAC is not willing to admit that the model will not work in some cases.

I too am aware of situations where property was bought and sold on MLS (and had been on MLS for at least a year) Where MPAC's model spewed out an assessment 30% higher than the sale price. MPAC made no change on a reconsideration and only folded a day before the ARB hearing.

[g2020]

Come on, no one who makes any money on tax sales pays any attention to assessed value! Assessed values are probably accurate for well cared for homes in homogenous neighborhoods that do do not go up for tax sale. However, if they were to ever get on a tax sale list they would probably get redeemed before or after the sale. The junk that actually gets sold on tax sale is always way over assessed, but of course I assumed you all knew that. Right?

[ErnestBidder]

g2020:

  MPAC assessments have to be looked at from the viewpoint of all property owners, because it's the average guy getting it in the neck, taxwise. We have to remember that a buyer may look at the inflated taxes he will have to pay, and not all tax sale purchases are junk. Inflated tax rates may make a harder sell.

Frank:

  I will treat you to one bottle of "Noose-head" ale. :>)) You are correct, though, I did mispeak on the municipalities supplying all the info to MPAC; it is the other way around, as far as assessment value goes.

  In regard to g2020's statement: since I've read pretty well most of his previous postings, and, since it was not in quotes, I took it at face value: an ordinary statement of his feeling. Because I've had dealings with MPAC & the ARB, and know from personal experience how flawed is the system, I posed a contrary view, with the aim to garner comment. To landbaronofthenorth, I will say that I don't think it's "the arrogance of some MPAC employees", so much as it is their blind faith in the system that they have been trained to believe is absolutely correct in all aspects. MPAC may get info from their sources, but seem to be slow to put it into their system. I think that MPAC employees do try to be as reasonable and as helpful as they can be, within their guidelines. They will inspect the inside of a (supposedly fully finished) property, and can be astounded as you or I at the difference between their paperwork and the actuality before their eyes.

 The problem is that if you have a 1958 2" x 4" stick-built home in what is now a preferred area, their software does not differentiate between that and the house next door: a 2 year old 2" x 6"/ICF/SIP structure, with insulation under the basement slab, R40 under the roof, and a very expensive/sophisticated energy-efficient heating system; the only comparison seems to be square footage and lot size. If you own this 1958 house, god help you if you get busy (or ill) and forget that the new assessment forms come out late in the year, and you have a limited timespan to appeal; and the same if you are one day late for this or that deadline for appeal. Should you appeal, and lose, you then have to pay filing fees for their arbitration board, when it's their mistake in the first place. Further, try addressing the fact that the previous owner never appealed the assessment value! They blame you! They also think you should have consulted the MPAC value prior to purchase!

  The whole MPAC system has been set up to make it very difficult, if not close to impossible, for the property owner to win, and my opinion is that it's a giant fraud against the property owners; as stated before, tax rates remain low, but property values are inflated (and continue to increase at an inflated rate) and have the same effect on property taxes.

  Nirvana! A tax increase without actually raising taxes! A government wet dream.

  Does anyone know of any recorded instance of any single property owner ever having complained that MPAC has put too low a value on their property? If property owners, in general, don't automatically start appealing their assessment notices each and every year, we are screwed. I am going to do it, every year, to the bitter end. Oh, and for those that agree with Frank, remember that he is a retired tax collector. Not that that is a bad thing, but this is wonderland to tax collectors that used to have to talk to irate taxpayers: "Don't blame me, blame MPAC". I still love ya, Frank.