Trent Hills results and upcoming legislative changes

[Dave2]

A) Trent Hills Properties:

1.  No bids (not unexpected as former gas station)

2.  Cancelled

3.  Winning bid $35,100 and second $31,000 and  change

4.  This was attractive one but the property owner decided to be a meanie  and it redeemed just before the sale.  

b) Upcoming Legislative changes on tax sales.

a) any excess over minimum will revert to province.   As a result expect much higher minimums.  

already passed first reading.  

Anyone read it in depth.    

Dave

[jt]

Dave, thanks for posting the results.  Not surprising that property 4 was redeemed. 

Yes, it looks like under the new act the surplus will go to the province and not the municipality.  I don't quite follow your logic as to how this will lead to higher minimums.  The minimum is based on the cancellation price, which is set according to a formula in the act.  Other than possibly inflating their "reasonable costs", it doesn't seem like the municipality has a lot of control over the minimum.

[Jayz]

Was a bit surprising it didn't get redeemed ... of course, until ... There must have been one hell of a fight between the owner and the town - nice property with a house and other structures barely 10 years old; horse training business on it; yet it has been offered for tax sale twice with the last one in 2011.

[Dave2]

Dave, thanks for posting the results.  Not surprising that property 4 was redeemed. 

Yes, it looks like under the new act the surplus will go to the province and not the municipality.  I don't quite follow your logic as to how this will lead to higher minimums.  The minimum is based on the cancellation price, which is set according to a formula in the act.  Other than possibly inflating their "reasonable costs", it doesn't seem like the municipality has a lot of control over the minimum. 

Jt:

Here are some of the specific references. 

The pertinent changes are in (Thanks to O.T.S.)

?         Bill 68  http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/bills/bills_detail.do?locale=en&Intranet=&BillID=4374

?         Forfeited Corporate Properties Act, 2015  https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/15f38

?         Part XI of the Municipal Act, 2001  https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/01m25

O.T.S.  and I disagree what the future will hold.   They believe that there will be lower minimums and I believe there are enough
imaginative accountants in small communities that someone will find a way and there will be higher minimums. 

Okay Dave and Jeff: 

you up for a bet of a beer who is right.   

Dave

[raylak]

Read this on Bill 68.. anyone has more information on this?

Amendments are made to sections 371 to 388.2 of the Act, and new sections are added, to reduce the time that property taxes have to be in arrears before a municipality can start a tax sale and to make other changes to the process. Expedited timelines are provided for the sale of corporate property that has escheated or forfeited to the Crown. Various amendments relate to the coming into force of the Forfeited Corporate Property Act, 2015. (see sections 343 to 364.2 of the City of Toronto Act, 2006)

[Jack]

Dave2, one beer it is. I think you may just be wrong this one time, since the Province is overspent. If the province is going to have an increase in the minimum sale amount eat into their new found revenue source you can bet they will put pressure on the municipaliities to justify and reduce charges. OTS is correct, the minimums will go down.
Most importantly you seem to be confusing the City of Toronto Act, 2006 with the Tax Sale Act that we are all familiar with. They are different, especially with respect to the excess proceeds and crown liens. Once again I have to agree with OTS. Tax sales will occur earlier and if you thought the redemptions just before the sale are high now, just wait, they will get even higher.
Dave2, please keep up the great job you are doing of posting the sheriff's sales - with tax sale properties going up earlier the redemption rate could be so high that Sheriffs sales become the better bet. At least with the Sheriff's sale a CRA lien is quantified and not hidding in waiting for an unsuspecting newbee.

[Dave2]

Dave2, one beer it is. I think you may just be wrong this one time, since the Province is overspent. If the province is going to have an increase in the minimum sale amount eat into their new found revenue source you can bet they will put pressure on the municipaliities to justify and reduce charges. OTS is correct, the minimums will go down.
Most importantly you seem to be confusing the City of Toronto Act, 2006 with the Tax Sale Act that we are all familiar with. They are different, especially with respect to the excess proceeds and crown liens. Once again I have to agree with OTS. Tax sales will occur earlier and if you thought the redemptions just before the sale are high now, just wait, they will get even higher.  

Jack:

The big problem we have right now is the bill has not passed final reading and amendments are possible.  My comment was based on the fact that the province is taking away some of local municipality revenue base and the municipalities will naturally try and protect it. We will know if the province is really desperate for money if they start restricting redemptions say by restricting post tax sale redemptions.  Some of the provisions also concern me like notice and advertising changes but we will wait and see what the final version is.  

Right now for both  tax sales and sheriffs sales I expect a continuing high level of redemptions because of the rising real estate prices.   When the real estate market reverses the incidence of redemptions may change.    

Right now my biggest concern is the high sale bid prices and I think the province has overestimated the long term revenue potential if they base their expectations on some of the sale prices this year.  Getting squished like a bug as I say is no fun but we will wait and see what the future brings and whether I will be kicking myself a year from now that I was not more aggressive.  Of course if you brought property before this year you are smiling. 

Its like Marmora and Lake.   Someone decided to take their chances with the MNR.   Long-term I will follow that one and see what happens.   

[jt]

Dave2, one beer it is. I think you may just be wrong this one time, since the Province is overspent. If the province is going to have an increase in the minimum sale amount eat into their new found revenue source you can bet they will put pressure on the municipaliities to justify and reduce charges. OTS is correct, the minimums will go down.
Most importantly you seem to be confusing the City of Toronto Act, 2006 with the Tax Sale Act that we are all familiar with. They are different, especially with respect to the excess proceeds and crown liens. Once again I have to agree with OTS. Tax sales will occur earlier and if you thought the redemptions just before the sale are high now, just wait, they will get even higher.
Dave2, please keep up the great job you are doing of posting the sheriff's sales - with tax sale properties going up earlier the redemption rate could be so high that Sheriffs sales become the better bet. At least with the Sheriff's sale a CRA lien is quantified and not hidding in waiting for an unsuspecting newbee.

I doubt the province is worried much about the revenue from this.  The excess doesn't get forfeited to the province for 10 years.  Ontario doesn't think that far into the future.  Also, I expect that the numbers aren't going to be incredibly large.  By the time you factor in redemptions (both pre and post sale) and properties where someone (either the ex-owner or a creditor) asks for the surplus , I suspect the amount of money left over is not significant to Ontario.

I also don't buy the argument that this will lead to lower minimums.  I think a tax sale is really a bit of a pain for the municipality and they aren't that eager to conduct them.  Towns get dragged into court over tax sales more often than they would like.  Also, municipalities really aren't that eager to take people's houses.

My guess is that the change will not increase or decrease minimums.

[Dave2]

I doubt the province is worried much about the revenue from this.  The excess doesn't get forfeited to the province for 10 years.  Ontario doesn't think that far into the future.  Also, I expect that the numbers aren't going to be incredibly large.  By the time you factor in redemptions (both pre and post sale) and properties where someone (either the ex-owner or a creditor) asks for the surplus , I suspect the amount of money left over is not significant to Ontario.

I also don't buy the argument that this will lead to lower minimums.  I think a tax sale is really a bit of a pain for the municipality and they aren't that eager to conduct them.  Towns get dragged into court over tax sales more often than they would like.  Also, municipalities really aren't that eager to take people's houses.

My guess is that the change will not increase or decrease minimums.

jt

Revenue maybe more important then you think.  see news article

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVjoHXzxYXH4AMfwXFwx./RV=2/RE=1480380296/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.parrysound.com%2fnews-story%2f6982590-seguin-budget-surplus-from-unexpected-tax-sale-proceeds%2f/RK=0/RS=yd5Ln3hIexSDeqy.JTElQX.hKnM-

[jt]

jt

Revenue maybe more important then you think.  see news article

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVjoHXzxYXH4AMfwXFwx./RV=2/RE=1480380296/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.parrysound.com%2fnews-story%2f6982590-seguin-budget-surplus-from-unexpected-tax-sale-proceeds%2f/RK=0/RS=yd5Ln3hIexSDeqy.JTElQX.hKnM-
[/quote]

This is a very unusual circumstance and not something they count on.  Indeed, the article presents this as being a surprise windfall - something they hadn't budgeted for.

[mountainman]

I am Mountainman

Jack and raylak

take a step back,

As for jt

what will be will be,

For my good friend Dave

'tis time to be brave,

Not one of us shall feel

any effect on the deal,

As to who will take a hit

frankly I don't give a sh*t,

For I am Mountainman

[Dave2]

Mountainman:

I agree it will not be us

who get thrown under the bus,

my worry is like the scorpion?s sting,

our attention is drawn to the wrong thing,

my worry is another will be hurt,

as a result we all now have to grovel in the dirt

it may like times gone bye

for those who want to reach for the sky

unfortunately this time we may really sob,

because where is Rob.  

[ErnestBidder]

  Tsk, tsk, Mountainman, what language! The municipalities will take the hit; although they cannot plan on the revenues that may come from the sale of property of disappeared owners, they can now count on not ever having any such unexpected revenues in the future. The hit will be born by the taxpayer, in the form of all ongoing municipal services costs that, I'm sure, are not fully attibuted to delinquent tax properties, and will now never be partially paid. God (*&^&^) bless the Wynne government, and also the dolts who voted Liberal. But, given that the choice was really no choice, I guess we really cannot blame the voters.

[Jack]

Does anyone have results for the Hamilton 73 acres please.
Regarding the new provincial money grab, the Province has already started a procedure in Toronto where the public trustee took all the excess proceeds from a property that I purchased. The public trustee then accepts applications from creditors, pays out, and then pockets the rest. What does this matter to us, you say? Well it does matter. There was a CRA lien on the property I purchased, no other encumbrances, and a couple of hundred grand left over after everyone is paid. The problem is the Public Trustee and province are slow, slow, slow. I cannot give clear title until the CRA lien is removed, and CRA will not remove the lien until they get their money in full plus accumulating interest, and I am now well into the second year of waiting. It is just getting more and more expensive to buy at tax sale. I recall several times buying undersized property at tax sale under the old Act, and then letting them go back on tax sale when I could not sell them. Then you could just show your deed and "certified abstract of title" to the treasurer who knew you because he sold you the property (I say "he" because back then all the treasurers were male). So within a few days of the sale you had your excess procedds of sale. Then under the new Act you had to make an application to court, and that could take a month or two. Then the procedure took over a year, even on unencumbered property. Now the province is going to be the one making the application. The moral is, do not buy anything with a government lien, or anything that even remotely resembles a government lien. Yes, even if the only claim is in the sherriff's bailywack, because you will be sitting with the property forever even if at the time of sale there appeared to be enough to clear the lien. The dilema as Dave2 mentioned is that just when you should lower your bid to cover new costs, you have to bid higher to get anything.