Georgian Bay - Why is there always a conspiracy to cheat me of my winnings

[Dave2]

The thing I hate about this business is there is always someone that seems to be trying to cheat me of the winnings I know I deserve.  

It seems to start off the the same:  

a) vacation property little over an hour drive from Toronto

b) Just off the 400 and close to Georgian bay.  (Lots of Marina's nearby to park the yacht.)

c) Its even in Muskoka so you can be seen with the rich people.      

d) Land looks high and dry and has lots of frontage and with no fancy buildings or waterfront it is obviously not of    
    interest to this board's aristocracy who have another 4 - 5 hours to drive before they get to their new place in
    Blind River.        

e) Big enough for well and septic and apparently zoned with a zoning that usually to permits building.  
    (may need to be rezoned)

f) I can actually afford the minimum bid.  

So far so good so you spend the money for a title search.  That is when it gets interesting.  

Oh Oh - The land is owned by a bankruptcy trustee.  

Now begins the fun.  Do you bid?    

[Jack]

No! You should not bid.

[LarasDad]

Dave, I don't quite get what you mean by "owned by a bankruptcy trustee" -- they don't normally "buy" a debtor's assests as part of the bankruptcy process.  So if there's no mortgage or any other claims against the property then my guess is that the trustee isn't expecting much more than the back-tax value to be realized from a "forced" sale.  (Trustees are in the business of generating fees for themselves, not looking out for the interests of the creditors, or debtors IMHO)  Just my .02

[Jack]

LarasDad is certainly correct, but the answer to Dave's question as to whether or not to bid is still - No! Title is not the issue. The zoning is not the issue. Zoning is just a hurdle. Just because the zoning will allow a house does not guarantee that you would be allowed to construct one. Dave goes on to say in d) that it is high and dry with lots of frontage. He then lets you know in e) that it it is probably big enough for well and septic servicing. Dave is just too smart for most. He knows that you cannot build without being on a year-round municipally maintained road under that zoning. OTS makes it clear hat it is a private road. It is not on a lake. As the clever as Dave pfm1011 once pointed out, even with waterfront in Muskoka, the lake needs to have a marina, if you are not on a year-round maintained road. Each of the Muskoka municipalities has exceptions but none will even allow a hunt shack unless you have at least 25 acres. Dave is just testing you. He does not want this dwarf, even considering the correctness of the LarasDad rebuttal. I wager that the correct answer to Dave's question is still - No you should not bid?
Dave, do I get a beer, eh?

[Frank]

Not sure who is correct or not on this one. 

Lands revert to the Public Trustee when they originate from a defunct corporation.  Without doing a search I assume that is the case....the Trustee simply wants the excess proceeds of sale, and doesn't want to get into the marketplace with a somewhat questionable property.  This is likely a remnant piece of the original shoreline development.

If you look at the legal description you will see it has a whole bunch of sub-parts.....these are actually pieces of the road.  While they say the property has 1.85 acres, it is more like 1.24 acres when you measure it, and it has at max. about 100 feet of depth...lots of frontage.   If you could build you have limitations, and are not on the water so value is diminished.   Even hunt camps in Muskoka require around 100 acres.

The road may a non-issue....yes it is a private road, however it is shown on the Regional mapping site as a year round road, is it maintained by the municipality (I can't imagine they would maintain it for a couple of cottages)....questions, questions. 

[Dave2]

Dave, I don't quite get what you mean by "owned by a bankruptcy trustee" -- they don't normally "buy" a debtor's assests as part of the bankruptcy process.  So if there's no mortgage or any other claims against the property then my guess is that the trustee isn't expecting much more than the back-tax value to be realized from a "forced" sale.  (Trustees are in the business of generating fees for themselves, not looking out for the interests of the creditors, or debtors IMHO)  Just my .02  

Laras Dad:

I am not going to say a lot about the title search except for few things.

a) In the Parcel Register the Bankruptcy Trustee is the registered owner.     It is the bankruptcy trustee not the public trustee.
  
 Legally this has some potentially very significant issues, Which are??[/color]

c) One sentence from search summary.  "Property now in the registered name of the Trustee?s in Bankruptcy"

Just to keep my personal intentions clear, I reserve the right to bid on this one.  Just a warning.   Anyone interested in this one better get a full title search, this is a complicated one. Better get out your check book for your lawyer.   His or her bill maybe not be cheap.  

I have not faced one like this since north of Tweed a couple of years ago, which took a year to register title after it had defeated three previous legal efforts.  

[Matt]

My previous experience similar to this tells me that the sale will eventually be cancelled.

The trustee will most likely register "No Dealings" caution to title as soon as he finds out that tax sale is imminent.  The trustee is a licensed lawyer under the Office of the Superintendent of Bankruptcy (OSB).  Note that OSB is a Federal government crown agency.

Nevertheless, it could go the other way.
As the property does not hold a significant value and as it may be difficult to sell it in the public market, the trustee may let go for tax sale and just go after the proceeds from the sales as Lara's dad has pointed out.

Yes, this one is quite suited for Dave as he has successfully demonstrated his legal skills with his property near Tweed.

[Helena T.]

Dave,

I too, thought the Twp of Georgian Bay property might be one that I was interested in; however, it would appear that the zoning is RU (Rural) and that the Zoning requirements call for a minimum lot area of 10.0 ha in order to erect a building/structure. The lot in the Tax Sale is 1.85 acres, or
0.7486684 ha. So, based on that information, I'm out.

Helen

[butchard]

I guess everybody is out now.  Looks like it is postponed

[Dave2]

My previous experience similar to this tells me that the sale will eventually be cancelled.

The trustee will most likely register "No Dealings" caution to title as soon as he finds out that tax sale is imminent.  The trustee is a licensed lawyer under the Office of the Superintendent of Bankruptcy (OSB).  Note that OSB is a Federal government crown agency.

A couple of comments.   In general there is not huge value with this property and the general situation surrounding it reminds me of the Chinese torture of the death of 1,000 cuts.  

I only reserved the right to bid on the property to protect myself against the charge that if I bid people would claim that I invented all sorts of problems so I could get the property cheap.   In this case the problems and resulting risks are real.  

Now that the sale has been postponed Matt may be right.    We will have to wait and see what goes on.

Matt correctly identified one key issue here that concerned me.    Bankruptcy law is federal and tax sale law is provincial so in event of a conflict the Feds win.    Impossible to tell if you will face the issue or not   At the end of the day the key question is the reward worth the risk.  

even if these are solved there is the zoning issue remaining plus possible setback issues caused by the shape of the land that may not
give you enough space for building.  

[Dave2]

I guess everybody is out now.  Looks like it is postponed 

Its back.  Treasurer must really want tax proceeds